Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Regulation
Mentorship
Leadership
Professionalism
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
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You just gave an SPC power over an NCO when you removed yourself from the situation. If you weren't going to follow through, than you should not have said anything. You should have identified yourself after she answered yes to knowing she was in violation of Army Regs and requested her ID and the name of her 1st SGT. A scene did not need to be made and she should have been instructed to correct herself per Army Regs.
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Well by all means you have a right as an NCO to correct a violation. I would of asked her politely to step off to the side and identified who I am and asked her to provide me with her full name and unit and last four. As a NCO you have the right to request that she surrender her military ID also.
The I would of asked her where she was stationed and the name of her Cmdr and top shirt. The I would of informed her that since she admitted to the fact that she was out of uniform and the reason she was wearing her uniform was for personnel gain from public establishment. What AR 670-1 state reference to proper wearing of military uniform and female hair grooming policy.
The problem with today's military is the lack of STRUCTURE/LEADERSHIP/
DISCIPLINE Today's young generation hasn't a clue to what life/respect/self-respect/honor means.
Either way no matter what branch of service she was in if she was in uniform. She was under US Title 10 or 32 which stated that she was on active duty and falls under the UCMJ.
The I would of asked her where she was stationed and the name of her Cmdr and top shirt. The I would of informed her that since she admitted to the fact that she was out of uniform and the reason she was wearing her uniform was for personnel gain from public establishment. What AR 670-1 state reference to proper wearing of military uniform and female hair grooming policy.
The problem with today's military is the lack of STRUCTURE/LEADERSHIP/
DISCIPLINE Today's young generation hasn't a clue to what life/respect/self-respect/honor means.
Either way no matter what branch of service she was in if she was in uniform. She was under US Title 10 or 32 which stated that she was on active duty and falls under the UCMJ.
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I work with a retired Navy Chief who worked at Great Lakes as a company commander (drill sergeant). He told me a story of a recently graduated recruit he saw out of uniform at a mall and he called him out on it. I believe if you want to be recognized in uniform, wear it right. Don't like the uniform don't wear it if your able to wear civilian cloths. Otherwise represent your branch of service as best you can.
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I corrected a 1sgt at my job last week in Oklahoma City. His Us Army And Name tag were on the wrong sides. So I corrected him on the spot.
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PO1 (Join to see)
I think I would have been tempted to call him Mr. Army at that point....or mention that I didn't know there was a 6th branch of military
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As others have weighed in on this situation I believe the value and the morality of today’s military forces has changed; however, as a retiree we can interject and do an on the stop correction with tactic and sincerity not to loose face of the situation. Back when I was in the service we were not allowed in BDU’s out side of Garrison, Fort and/or Camp in anyone’s establishment especially stores. If you where some place you better be in Class A or B uniform and not BDU’s. I was in a situation where I did do an on the spot correction or as I put it challenge. Whomever, doing the correction must introduce themselves fully and my advice is pull out your identification not in a threatening manner but before had asked to speak to that person in private without sounding intimidating or threatening to their person. Simply, ask them to adhere to the AR 670-1 in respect of the regulation and our combat war-fighters that are gone before us. Ask them to think about their representation of the armed forces and what would their mentor say to them know. You have to get them to thinking what if someone else would have caught them what would be the consequences. If you do an on the stop correction don’t make it seem that they are degrading the uniform but remind them that its proper protocol ...Leaders Train and Re-Train, Mentor through expectations and excellences.
Well, in short the young man what attending a technical school “STAR” program in class B uniform with his head gear strap down under his belt. I asked to speak with him introduce myself and handed him my identification “Military ID” and I simply explain the situation. ALL in all he appreciate me and place his hat on his head and said HOORAH Sergeant!
Well, in short the young man what attending a technical school “STAR” program in class B uniform with his head gear strap down under his belt. I asked to speak with him introduce myself and handed him my identification “Military ID” and I simply explain the situation. ALL in all he appreciate me and place his hat on his head and said HOORAH Sergeant!
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You mentioned it to her once, your dealing directly to her has been done. Do you see that picture that you posted? Did you happen to get one of her face? Go to your base with those pictures, and show them to your CO. He will be madder than you are, and he will make sure that she get's a lesson in Military Regulations from her CO. And, if you are senior to her, make sure that you tack on "Disrespect to a Senior".
I am no longer on active duty, and I see these "Shit Birds" in public places more and more. I am totally disgusted by the actions of our younger soldiers, they have no respect for anyone, anything, or themselves. They need a lesson in having "PRIDE".
I am no longer on active duty, and I see these "Shit Birds" in public places more and more. I am totally disgusted by the actions of our younger soldiers, they have no respect for anyone, anything, or themselves. They need a lesson in having "PRIDE".
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Did it even cross your mind that you should just leave her alone? What's the big deal?? There are many people doing way worse than that girl who is wearing her uniform "out of the regulations" yet the "leadership", at its best, goes after the minor issues to micro-manage and throw their ranks around.
Now what? you gonna tell me that what I wrote is also "out of regulation"?
But wait - Before you start bashing and insulting me for posting this comment (something very regular in the military) keep in mind that you took oath to "Defend the Constitution of the United States" which guarantees my right to speech and expression.
Thank you for your service and have a great day SSG.
Now what? you gonna tell me that what I wrote is also "out of regulation"?
But wait - Before you start bashing and insulting me for posting this comment (something very regular in the military) keep in mind that you took oath to "Defend the Constitution of the United States" which guarantees my right to speech and expression.
Thank you for your service and have a great day SSG.
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PO1 (Join to see)
The big deal is that the military is not a do as you see....it is a do as you are told. And in boot camp, no matter the branch, we are taught how to wear our uniforms. It is instilled (or at least they try to instill) in us to take pride in our service in the military and to show that pride by wearing our uniforms in the proper manner and being respectful no matter the situation.
Sometimes I still feel like a civilian as i have only been in a few years, but when I see someone out of regs I think "they obviously don't care about themselves or the job they hold" and then i think "Why are they Serving if they so obviously don't care?" I mean, even before they joined, did they never care about their appearance? if they had a previous job how did they keep that if they use to dress the same at that job as they do this one?
Sometimes I still feel like a civilian as i have only been in a few years, but when I see someone out of regs I think "they obviously don't care about themselves or the job they hold" and then i think "Why are they Serving if they so obviously don't care?" I mean, even before they joined, did they never care about their appearance? if they had a previous job how did they keep that if they use to dress the same at that job as they do this one?
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(Join to see)
Ms. Kimberly, thank you for your calm and polite response. I agree with you that military members should care about their appearance, however, there's no need to turn it into such a big deal. Look at the comments posted on this forum. I can't speak for others but I personally would not have liked my picture taken, posted on a public forum, discussed and ridiculed as if I have committed some kind of crime. People need to go beyond throwing the ranks around, making uniform corrections and genuinely show leadership skills. Compassion is one of the many leadership traits.
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PO1 (Join to see)
True, but if you think about it, the ones posted on the media cites may not have been put there by military (prior or present) it could have been a civilian who took the picture and posted it. because of the PR that the military puts out professionally, the civilians with no military knowledge have at least a general idea of what the uniform is suppose to look like. i don't know about other people, but I was raised to be aware of how my outlook of myself could be seen by others...for example: if you dont want to be treated like a child, dont act like one. Everyone who is and has been in the military has been told that we are the face of our branches and the military as a whole, we have an image to uphold whether we are having a bad day or not.
Some people are just assholes and havnt made the connection that they also have an image to uphold when making the corrections, some of them dont realize that is what they are doing. But if you taking into mind that some of the "younger generation" (i am part of that generation), even though they made it through boot camp, have to have that rank thrown in their face because they wont take a suggestion from someone of the same rank or lower thinking "why should they correct me, they are no better than me." they may see and actually respect the higher rank more and so they are more likely to respond better.
Part of showing leadership is making uniform corrections....think about it, if you owned an upscale restaurant like applebees, would you want your employees wearing shorts and mowhawks (yes i know its a bit extreme, but think about). if you want to be known for owning a nice family restaurant you do want your employees dressed like they are working at a strip joint. uniform regs and enforcing them are the same.
we are taught to learn all that we can so we can take the job of the person above us and to train those below us to eventually take our jobs....why would i want someone who can't dress appropriately to take my job?
the compassion comes in on how you relay the corrections. you dont want to come off as rude, but you also dont want to come off as a door mat. do you see what i mean?
Some people are just assholes and havnt made the connection that they also have an image to uphold when making the corrections, some of them dont realize that is what they are doing. But if you taking into mind that some of the "younger generation" (i am part of that generation), even though they made it through boot camp, have to have that rank thrown in their face because they wont take a suggestion from someone of the same rank or lower thinking "why should they correct me, they are no better than me." they may see and actually respect the higher rank more and so they are more likely to respond better.
Part of showing leadership is making uniform corrections....think about it, if you owned an upscale restaurant like applebees, would you want your employees wearing shorts and mowhawks (yes i know its a bit extreme, but think about). if you want to be known for owning a nice family restaurant you do want your employees dressed like they are working at a strip joint. uniform regs and enforcing them are the same.
we are taught to learn all that we can so we can take the job of the person above us and to train those below us to eventually take our jobs....why would i want someone who can't dress appropriately to take my job?
the compassion comes in on how you relay the corrections. you dont want to come off as rude, but you also dont want to come off as a door mat. do you see what i mean?
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I was involved in a similar-ish situation... At Buffalo Wild Wings, there were two Officers (2LT and 1LT) having some drinks in uniform watching the game. My wife and I had been there since they arrived- they hadn't eaten anything only ordered drinks. I remarked to my wife about it, but didn't do anything... Until the 1LT drunkenly walked to the latrine, and walked into the female latrine instead of the male latrine.
At that point I knew I had to say something, so when he came back I went to the table and quietly (and professionally, I was in civvies but I am only an E6) mentioned that the Officers may want to refresh themselves with AR 670-1 and when it is permitted to drink in uniform, and that having drinks in uniform and walking into the wrong gender latrine was definitely unprofessional.
When I walked away, they called the off duty cop working security over and stated I was harassing them, so I was asked to leave the restaurant for harassing "uniformed military members".
Unfortunately, if someone doesn't care- they won't care, no matter their rank, or the rank of whomever approaches them.
At that point I knew I had to say something, so when he came back I went to the table and quietly (and professionally, I was in civvies but I am only an E6) mentioned that the Officers may want to refresh themselves with AR 670-1 and when it is permitted to drink in uniform, and that having drinks in uniform and walking into the wrong gender latrine was definitely unprofessional.
When I walked away, they called the off duty cop working security over and stated I was harassing them, so I was asked to leave the restaurant for harassing "uniformed military members".
Unfortunately, if someone doesn't care- they won't care, no matter their rank, or the rank of whomever approaches them.
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SSG (Join to see)
I reported it to my MSG trying to run it up the chain the 'proper' way, but nothing was ever done about it- I doubt it got past him. I don't have the pictures of them around the table with 7-8 glasses on it anymore, but I remember who the 1LT was.
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PO1 (Join to see)
did you think about approaching the 1LT later after he sobered up? or would that be a too late kind of thing?
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SSG (Join to see)
It would have been too late- while I didn't know him at the restaurant (I asked around with his picture and got his information) he is in a unit ~2 hours away and the likelihood of seeing him again is really low.
Plus my thoughts were stopping any possible bad situations that could have arisen- bad conduct from a drunken person in public while in uniform actually the least of them.
To be fair, he was an M-Day Officer drilling on post and unfortunately, a large portion of NG Soldiers spend enough time out of uniform that their conduct reflects in uniform.
Plus my thoughts were stopping any possible bad situations that could have arisen- bad conduct from a drunken person in public while in uniform actually the least of them.
To be fair, he was an M-Day Officer drilling on post and unfortunately, a large portion of NG Soldiers spend enough time out of uniform that their conduct reflects in uniform.
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CPT (Join to see)
sorry its the new touchy feel Army, maybe she just needs a hug because it wasn't her special day
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I servsd in the Army 45 years ago but I don't think the regs on this kind of behavior have changed since then. It just shows the lack of respect 95% of all young people have today for any kind of authoruty or themselves. I f any of the NCO's or Officers I served under had come across this, they would most definately taken the person aside and made them correct the situation on the spot. (Former SPC IV Mechanized Infantry)
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You should have asked her what unit she was in and reported her to her CSM
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Hands down agree with SMSgt Thomas. This Soldier should have been pulled aside and corrected. If that didn't work after showing your ID, get the commands info. If that didn't work, take a pic and find her on AKO. I would 100% have attempted a calm discussion but have no problem embarrassing a disrespectful Soldier in public.
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I don't think anyone could hold your choice against you. I would generally think a quiet and polite correction should be the default - while this person sounds like they knew they were doing something incorrect, someone could just daze or have a dumb moment (I do). Once the first correction attempt has been made, if they don't comply, then I would think being more aggressive is fine - given your audience. If your truly in public, civilians are around, then it may not be worth the PR hit to make a scene, and you could just get the soldier's info to contact their leadership, but if you're on base.... I think wrecking them would be perfectly acceptable. Again, this is only after being nice about it the first time.
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If you are a "leader" then yes you step in. When I was a young Marine I saw a Gunnery Sargent, on leave, step up to and tell another young Marine that his military alignment was off and his back pocket un bottoned. He informed the young Marine that we are Marines 24 hours a day and if we are going to wear the uniform, wear it correctly or don't wear it at all. So yes something should have been said.
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As a former SPC in the Army NG, and as a current SGT. in a law enforcement agency I know enforcing uniform regulations are important, not just for image, but for discipline in the ranks. I would have introduced my self, showing ID and told her to correct her uniform. Any defiance or disrespect would have been reported in writing to her chain of command.
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SSG (Join to see) you did the most important thing - you acted and made an OTSC. You did what any good NCO should have done.
Putting it on here took a lot of Personal Courage because of all the responders second guessing every move made with perfect 20/20 hindsight and plenty of time to think about it.
What has been good about this post for you, and a lot of other young Service Members, is the host of ways expressed by a bunch of us old farts of what we have done or what has worked for us in how to handle situations such as this if they should come up again, or in other words, seeing some experience passed on.
I personally agree you were in a tough spot to do much else other than what you did, given her date and yours, and everything else. Hopefully, the offending individual will be tracked down, and her CoC will be found, and we will have some resolution knowing her 1SG and CSM have enlightened her (oh how I wish I was still in and was her Brigade CSM - my devious mind is working overtime on what that eye roll got her, not to mention the cap and hair).
One other thing SSG (Join to see) if the individual is found and the situation is addressed, can you edit/update the original question/heading to let us all know? My greatest angst is this individual never standing on the carpet in front of her 1SG answering for this and getting away with it. That injustice causes me to loose sleep at night.
Putting it on here took a lot of Personal Courage because of all the responders second guessing every move made with perfect 20/20 hindsight and plenty of time to think about it.
What has been good about this post for you, and a lot of other young Service Members, is the host of ways expressed by a bunch of us old farts of what we have done or what has worked for us in how to handle situations such as this if they should come up again, or in other words, seeing some experience passed on.
I personally agree you were in a tough spot to do much else other than what you did, given her date and yours, and everything else. Hopefully, the offending individual will be tracked down, and her CoC will be found, and we will have some resolution knowing her 1SG and CSM have enlightened her (oh how I wish I was still in and was her Brigade CSM - my devious mind is working overtime on what that eye roll got her, not to mention the cap and hair).
One other thing SSG (Join to see) if the individual is found and the situation is addressed, can you edit/update the original question/heading to let us all know? My greatest angst is this individual never standing on the carpet in front of her 1SG answering for this and getting away with it. That injustice causes me to loose sleep at night.
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Is there no policy in place prohibiting the wear of uniform off duty and off post? I understand It's not a regulation, but every installation I've been to, even an AFB, had a policy and a "strong urge" not to wear uniform unnecessarily. Unless this was a student and didn't have much of a choice in attire, I don't understand why she wouldn't just change before going to the movies. And more to the point, if you're going to wear it, do it with pride. I'm proud of your restraint, SSG. Warm fuzzies and all.
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SSgt John Hutto
yes there is policy strongly urging not wearing your uniform off base. but seems like i see alot of Airmen and even officers violating it with no regard at all.
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I agree a correction needs to be made. After all she/he is representing the military. I think SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas is correct. Take the troop aside and explain the infraction. If an attitude follows try and find our his/her command. Then take it to the next step.
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On the spot corrections are appropriate in public regardless of the venue. It is our duty as soldiers and NCOs to correct them, off to the side, in a tactful manner. When you wear any authorized uniform in public, you are representing your branch and the military, and as such, need to adhere to regulation. It isn't making a scene, it's being a good soldier and leader.
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