Posted on Jan 14, 2015
SSG Combat Medic
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
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SFC Company First Sergeant
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NCO's have general military authority, a leader is a leader 24 hours a day, seven days a week, not when its convenient. The correction would be required especially in public because a Soldier is also a Soldier 24 hours a day 7 days a week. NCO's are also the keepers of the standards, and if we allow a lower standard (such as not enforcing AR 670-1) then we have just allowed a new lower standard. There is of course the importance of using tact in such a situation. Calling out the Soldier in front of this forum is a weak thing to do. Nor does it really accomplish the original intent, all it does is show this forum that the poster of this message is indecisive, and also jumps the chain. I'm sure the specialist has a supervisor, the poster should have identified the supervisor and let the supervisor take corrective action on their subordinate. Especially if the SPC disrespected the NCO poster (which is a UCMJ violation, disrespecting an NCO).
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SGT Ray Montoya
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I am sorry but the new soldiers now days don't have the respect and the honor that we had in the early 80's. The reason is the way society has changed. The soldiers are babied compared to what we went through. If it wasn't for the liberal social community our soldiers would not have the problems that they have. Do not get me wrong I am proud of my brothers and sisters that serve but I am not proud of what they get away with.
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PO2 Jon Cardoza
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Edited >1 y ago
I started reading some of the main responses above; the general consensus is that you should have hemmed her up....my response to that statistic:

ROGER THAT!

Ladies and Gentlemen...the uniforms we wear (or wore in my case) are to be worn with Honor! That means the appropriate haircuts and applicable uniform attire to fit the specific uniform code for the applicable branch of which the wearer resides.

I know there have been a lot of changes as to what uniforms can be worn out in town, whether out to dinner or to see a movie with a friend or loved one, but the changes in uniform do not change how we wear it or how we present ourselves when representing the branch of service we are in or the MILITARY in general.

My conversation with her would have been strictly in NCO fashion to ensure she was informed of her mistake, aware of my disapproval as an NCO and understanding of how uncouth her appearance was:

"...First off N.U.B. (None Useful Body) I want you to be aware that this is going to be a CHECK VALVE (One Way) conversation regarding your FUBAR (F*d Up Beyond All Recognition/Repair) appearance. You look like a SOUP SANDWICH (sloppy mess). I am not sure if you GUNDECKED (Half A$$ed) your SEABAG/RUCKSACK (Initial uniforms given in boot camp that all Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen should keep complete with the proper quantities of specified items) but the SUMMER CREASES (Some creases are here, some creases are there) you have makes it look like you pulled this uniform out of a dirty hamper that was sitting in the back of your closet for a year. Your current appearance and the fact you have apparently decided to say "F" the military, by mixing and matching your PT gear with your ACU's is beyond reproach..."

I would then turn to the immediately surrounding personnel (as you were in a mall, I am sure the Veteran to Civilian count was 6 out of every 10) and informed them of the BLUE FALCON (Someone who is out for themselves) that seemed to think that a military uniform could be mixed, matched and worn however the heck she deemed fit. I would ask would ask all Veterans to make a show of hands to better show this BAG NASTY (disgusting unappealing bag of food....similar to Soup Sandwich) the amount of personnel that have "gone before you to defend with Honor, Courage, Commitment and Integrity" and let her know that she essentially was flipping all of them the BIRD.

Congrats SPC (absolutely ZERO) WARE (withal). you have successfully screwed up my morning.
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CW3 Counterintelligence Technician
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Although I am good and retired I still believe in good order and discipline. Not too long ago I was at a mall in Richmond and saw a few troopers ambling about with PC on, hands in pockets, and iPhone ear buds in. I pulled the senior ranking of the group aside (a SPC) and showed him my ID card and asked himself and his peers in line. He was weighing whether or not to give me attitude but when I quoted the current 670-1 and let him know I had no problem driving to Ft Lee and talking to his C of C he quickly got everyone straight.

The point is that if you don't enforce good order and discipline (on or off post and on or off duty) then you are enabling and condoning the behavior. The Army gets a bad rap for a lot of things - the least we can do as NCOs and Officers is ensure that our Soldiers are doing the right thing whether anyone is looking or not.
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SSG Fritz Miller
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The Soldier was in the wrong and she was to be corrected NCO's lose the battle because we are 2nd guessing our selves on general authority and you have general authority on and off duty. Attitude or no attitude do not allow this type of behavior to go on it gives the uniform a bad look. Pull her to the side make your corrections and move on with your trip in the mall.
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CSM Command Sergeant MajorAD
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Young soldier never be afraid to make an on the spot correction! You could even change your tone and ask what unit the soldier is in, to at least advise his/her chain of command. When any soldier or leader walks past a violation of military standards, they have just created a new standard for all to follow.
It is called an "ethical dilemma ", and it presents you with challenge of whether or not to choose the harder right, over the easier wrong. Choose the easier right, and you will never be wrong. Victory starts with you! Army Strong!
CSM Brooks
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Cpl Mike Bischoff
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It's always appropriate to square someone who is UNSAT. I do it all the time when any branch member comes to my place of business. I introduce myself as a former Marine and proceed to "lock them on" the correct manner of attire and how to present themselves.
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SGT Todd Cathey
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Take this jack ass aside and make the necessary correction, too many better than the SPC died wearing that uniform. How dare you dis-respect that
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SPC(P) Technician
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Yes you should Identify yourself and give her direction on how to correct herself, she is still representing the army
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Capt Cyber Systems Operations
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My personal opinion is that uniform regs need to be enforced at all times especially out in town. We have a responsibility to honor the respect and traditions of the uniform for any American that ever wore one in service. That being said, tact is key. The way I approach someone on base differs from the way I approach them in town. I am far more discreet when off base as people seem to jump on the defensive much quicker once they've left the gates. As far as whether they are active, guard, or reserve, I don't care. We are all charged with the same accountability to the regs.
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SGT Shea McCuen
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As an NCO that is now out of the Army, I feel like I spend the majority of my weekends making on the spot corrections to all of the national guard kids when they are in town. I don't care if its a major or minor violation, the correction needs to be made. I do try to be friendly when making initial contact and I usually end up matching my attitude with theirs, which tends to spiral out of control because they think I'm just some dumb civilian try to mess with them. I have found the people that have the hardest time being corrected by me are the lower enlisted while the senior enlisted and officers tend to be more thankful for my corrections.
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Edited >1 y ago
Are you still in? Did you ID yourself? That usually makes the recipient display a little less attitude. That said, I think it's good to police ourselves even if we aren't active anymore, I've done it before for soldiers loudly using profane language on a commercial airline (I was off active). If you are on some kind of duty status (active/guard/reserve) I would hope you wouldn't have walked away because of an eye roll. The first line of defense in slipping standards is the NCO corps, if you let it slide, who is going to pick up the slack?
MAJ Usareur Sto Chief
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couldn't agree more. Bottom line: If you don't correct the problem then you have just set a new standard
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PO2 Information Systems Technician
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My opinion is that we should be proud to wear the uniform. This is what we were taught in boot camp, so I think it is only right to wear it right. She should respect the person who politely tells her to correct herself because she does not know your rank. I am sure that those watching would understand that the military is not a place for slackers. Honor, courage, commitment.
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CWO4 Intelligence Technician (General)
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Technically (depending on local rules and regulations as stated) This is all covered by UCMJ Articles 91 and 92. You identify yourself by name and rank (show your I.D. if need be) and go from there. I know at several installations throughout the U.S. it is a CO order to produce your military I.D. if asked.
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SFC Drill Sergeant
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I wear the Uniform in Pride, because of the men and women that died in all the previous wars give me the right to defend my Country, Constitution, Flag, and Oath while wearing it. To Dishonor them and me by not complying is a violation Of the Military Code of Conduct. I would have asked her to step outside and formally discussed my rank, her appearance and her disrespect for all others that Share that Uniform and I would have put her on Report to the Military authorities, if she did not comply. Self Respect has to be foremost while wearing the Uniform of the United States Military. Appearance counts on how people think of us. SFC Daniel T. Marthers Retired.
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SSG Aircraft Mechanic
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Smadailey
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SPC Kimberly Anne
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I would have asked her what unit she was with, , then ask to see her ID card, take a photo and give it to her chain of command ... dysfunctional idiots.
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SPC Kimberly Anne
SPC Kimberly Anne
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If there was less ass kissing and more real soldiers the Rallypoint wouldn't be posting this crap. It should be a "Band of Brothers" that holds its head high with honors and the more shit you have been through, hold yours even higher, that goes for all branches of service. There is a standard and as a "volunteer" in the military you are expected to up hold that standard no matter what. If you are a scumbag and enjoy being one, then by all means get out of the service, you are not a team player. If you think combat time offers you special privilege you are wrong. There are retired soldiers that fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam that fought for their lives as well and they still maintain their standards to this day. It is an honor to up hold that standard and if it is beneath you get out! No one forced you into todays military, you joined for some reason. Someone that can’t display him/herself by the military standard can’t be trusted to uphold themselves in stressful situations, which in turn can cost lives. A commander cannot command his unit, BN, DIV, Post, if you don’t follow the standards and is a reflection of his/her abilities to command and train his/her soldiers. There are not 2 sets of standards!
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MSG Lowell Milstead
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SSG Robinson,
At that point I believe that she was not going to correct herself and that's the way some Soldiers are these days. Somewhere she has a leader that is allowing her to do this on a regular basis so don't beat yourself up too bad about it. The thing for you is to instill in your Soldiers that it will be tolerated in your formation and make the correction if it does. Some Soldiers believe that since they are not engaged in the "regular hours of work 0630-1630" that they off duty. Guess what!! you are never off duty!!. Continue to make those corrections.
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Cpl Zack Hardin
Cpl Zack Hardin
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well said
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SSgt Robert Hartigan
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I would have offered her the opportunity to excuse herself to the ladies room in order to fix her appearance. If she declined, I would have detained her. Called her First Sergeant. Informed him/her about the appearance of his/her soldier. I would inform the First Sergeant and recommend charges be filed under Article 92 and 134. Maybe this SPC is a screw up and one more strike and she is out. Maybe she is just having a bad day. Not my concern. My creed dictates, "I will exert every effort and risk any ridicule to successfully accomplish my assigned duties." An NCO's duty is to enforce standards and discipline!
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SSG Ncoic
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Plain and simple, regardless of your rank or theirs, you should always make the correction in a tactful manner.
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SFC Military Police
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Edited >1 y ago
At least you had the professionalism to go up to her and attempt to fix the situation. Far too many Soldiers, Leaders, etc... are so introverted these days that they would rather turn the blind eye to it than make a correction which is why these violators get away with it.
If you were in the right, which you were, there isn't a thing she or her friend could have done about it. I would have given her the opportunity to move to a private location so we could discuss the infraction without publicly humiliating her. Had she chosen otherwise, well then you would have seen a Sergeant do what Sergeants are supposed to do.
We are the standard bearers and if we aren't going to fix the problems, who is? The problem is when the leaders themselves are not educated enough on the regs to make the correction and fear embarrassing themselves.
Much like the other day when I was doing PT and I had my fleece cap folded up around the bottom, as I have done for years. Some young SSG, God bless his heart was doing what he thought was the right thing, however his delivery method was wrong. He yelled " hey you, fix your F#%@ing cap". So I stopped to see to whom he was speaking and when he pointed at me and said " yeah you" and repeated his first request I felt it was my duty to mentor him.
So, since he decided to put himself out there in public such as he did I just had to correct him in public, not only for his unprofessional use of profanity but also his lack of knowledge of 670-1.
In summary, if you KNOW the reg make the correction, if you do not, LEARN IT or you are going to get embarrassed.
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SGT Infantryman
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Ask to see her ID and get their information at a minumum, that way you can track them down and make their COC aware of the encounter. The on the spot correction has to be made though. You were worried about the possible consequences of your actions in a public setting, should have been more worried about the perception that she was giving everyone who saw her. Also, as a SSG you should never need to question whether or notto male a correction, that is what you get paid to do. So on this...my take away is, and what she knows now, is that someone got their E6 and doesn't have the backbone for the job. We all need a boot im the ass from time to time. Adjust your point of aim SSG.
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SSG Fred Campbell
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You are a Soldier 24/7, as well as an NCO. You should have pulled her aside, made the correction, if she wanted to get butthurt, then jack it to the next level, her Chain of Concern, never back down, you are within regulations, as well have the backing of UCMJ....
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SMSgt Stephen Winner
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Unfortunately, we cannot "jack them up" anymore. We might "offend" them, hurt their feelings, etc. The libtards in charge have allowed a steady deterioration of discipline, and common sense. We are so screwed!
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CSM Stuart C. O'Black
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Edited >1 y ago
AR 600-20: All persons in the military service are required to strictly obey and promptly execute the legal orders of their lawful seniors. Take action consistent with Army regulation in any case where a Soldier’s conduct violates good order and military discipline.

Para 4-4: When military police are not present, the senior officer, WO, or NCO present will obtain the Soldier’s name, grade, social security number, organization, and station. The information and a statement of the circumstances will be sent to the Soldier’s commanding officer without delay.

**You can actually detain and arrest in extreme cases.

Para 4-5: Officers, WOs, NCOs, and petty officers of the Armed Forces are authorized and directed to quell all quarrels, frays, and disorders among persons subject to military law and to apprehend participants. Those exercising this authority should do so with judgment and tact. Personnel so apprehended will be returned to the jurisdiction of their respective Service as soon as practical. Confinement of females will be according to AR 190–47.

Thoughts:

We never remove ourselves from the situation. She is wrong and you have an obligation to correct. SMSgt Thomas does as I usually do - if there are family members present I pull them aside. If not I make the correction on the spot. Remember, every time you pass by an issue and don't correct and fix then you have set a new standard. You just told her she was right and reinforced her opinion.

What could be worse is if someone sees you walk by and not fix an issue as a NCO. We will go through extraordinary measures for our battles downrange and even risk our lives for one another. However, we get home it seems like some battles won't even set each other straight.

CSM OB
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SGT Steve Edwards
SGT Steve Edwards
>1 y
Well said!
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SSG Keith Chavey
SSG Keith Chavey
>1 y
CSM , with all due respect, regulations exist in order for an orderly execution of our mission at hand..a uniform violation, (while upsetting, and most certainly disrespectful, and absolutely inconsistent with military discipline , I don't feel is deserving of confinement) I feel it is a matter for the chain of command to handle such discipline matters..obviously her specific commander should be notified and she should be held accountable ..as should her leadership for fostering such behavior..
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Cpl Michael Mosley
Cpl Michael Mosley
>1 y
I disagree SSG Chavey, It is our Duty as servicemen and woman to take care of our own and should not set out to go up the chain of command when the situation can and should have been taken care of right there. If your an NCO, you have big shoes to fill, if you can't simply take care of a servicewoman out of Uniform Regulation out in the Civilian world than what else are you weak at. In the USMC becoming an NCO means a lot, you have to work hard at knowing proper regulations which you should have already known from Basic and continuously learning how to be an effective Leader. Anyone can become an NCO but can you fill those shoes?
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CSM Stuart C. O'Black
CSM Stuart C. O'Black
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SSG Chavey I was not saying confine the Soldier in terms of "jail". You have the authority to hold the Soldier until the COC or MPs can come. I have seen Soldiers disrespectful to NCOs and the NCO was unsure what to do. It is in the NCOs authority to hold/confine the individual until further action can be taken. However, if public escalation is a concern then like you said I am sure the COC can be notified and take appropriate action. To include refusal to obey a lawful order. Thanks for your comment.
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CW3 Battalion Operations Officer (S3)
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Quietly pulling them away from any civilian travelers they have with them is the right answer. I travel TDY a lot and spend a lot of time in airports. This is one of the biggest places you see problems. Normally, the ones that are jacked up are not traveling alone. If in civilian clothes (as I am 99% of the time when traveling, I will grab a random Soldier in uniform (normally someone of peer level that I want to make the correction on), introduce myself, point out the infraction and ask him/her to go fix it. This keeps it from having to be confrontational and teaches a few lessons. 1. you never know who is watching 2. the Soldier I grab to explain what is wrong gets a lesson in on the spot corrections, and looking out for their fellow Soldier 3. It is normally less embarrassing to the Soldier when it comes from a peer who says "hey, that Chief Warrant Officer over there just pointed out X and asked me to come fix you. Non-confrontational, correction made, lesson learned. The only way I feel the need to interact personally is if I cannot find another Soldier (preferably NCO) or the Soldier blows off the correction.
It's not the way, but a way. Many times in airports, Soldiers actually don't know better, especially when it is a group that has just finished basic training and headed for AIT. Drill Sergeants don't think to teach Soldiers about not walking through the airport with your Beats headphones around your neck - that is definitely not an issue in BCT, because they don't have that stuff. Either way, most of the time, Soldiers want to do the right thing, they just need to be afforded the opportunity to be reminded of what right looks like.
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TSgt David Rigby
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I had something similar when I was on emergency leave in my hometown, a good 70 miles from any military base, and the nearest being a Guard base. I saw an Airman walking around in Wal-Mart in his ABUs with his girl, talking on the phone, with his hand in his pocket. My wife saw the look on my face, and just said to be nice! :) I was in civilian clothes, and after I introduced myself I asked him what 36-2903 said about walking with your hands in your pockets. He said that he wasn't supposed to, but no one there knew any better so he did anyway! I asked him what his definition of integrity was, to which he replied doing what is right even when no one is looking. So I asked him, how was he demonstrating his integrity? He corrected himself and apologized. I left him by reminding him that to most people, HE was the only Air Force they would ever see!
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SSG Carl Sensabaugh II
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After she said yes to knowing she was violating the regs, I would have identified myself and asked her to step away from the others. Then get all her information, made the correction and let her be (also notified her chain the next business day). If she refused to ID herself. I would have then just dropped it but try to find out where she is stationed and notified her chain.
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MSG Instructor/Writer
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Edited >1 y ago
There is regulatory guidance on this. I had a similar situation happen recently to include a public place and attitude. I backed off once it became apparent it would create a scene.

I noted the unit patch, name and rank of the individual. I looked him up in the global using the advanced search (to narrow down rank and unit quickly). Once I had a full name, I put his name in facebook to verify it was him. Then I called his S1. After about 5 minutes I had his 1SGs email. I notified the 1SG and he emailed back that he would square away the troop. The bottom line is, the squeeze was worth the juice. The Soldier needed discipline... NCO's are required by regulation (law) to enforce standards. PERIOD.

So here is the reg: FM 7-22.7, para 2-35.
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SGM Robin Johnson
SGM Robin Johnson
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Good on you, SFC Romero, for knowing your NCO guideline FM. However, that is not regulatory in nature. Just for your future reference, your authority and regulatory guidance comes from AR 600-20, Army Command Policy. For this, specifically see chapter 4, and paragraph 4-6 addresses on-the-spot corrections. AR 600-20 is pretty short, and if you read it at this point in your career it will really serve you well.
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MSG Instructor/Writer
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Thanks for the info, SGM! I'll take some time to dig into AR 600-20.
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SSG Richard Brue
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You ask for her unit and first line supervisor. Then you let her know that it does not matter if she is on or off duty, UCMJ still applies. If she wants to have an attitude, her 1st SGT can always be brought into this.
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SGT Joshua Miller
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ha, my 1sg would have torn her apart, gotten her unit info, then stood there as her command came and ripped her apart. Thats an NCO's job. standards and discipline....
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SGM Jesse Davis
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As NCO's it is our responsibility to make those corrections regardless of how uncomfortable we may feel. Anytime you fail to correct a violation you just "set a new standard." Your authority to make corrections on other military members extend beyond the boundaries of a military installation. Military members regardless of their branch of service are required to comply with legal orders or corrections of individuals senior to them. I always pulled soldiers to the side to make corrections. A major part of leadership is being able to influence others, so initially ask the violator to make the correction because he/she is representing all Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen or Marines when they wear that uniform in public. If the individual fails to comply do not simply walk away and let it go, that's not the NCO way.
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SSG(P) G6 Ncoic
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That's what's wrong with the corps today. NCO's don't quite get it! Become aware of your military authority and defend our standards! "Backbone"!!!!!
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COL Charles Williams
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You did the right thing. We all have a duty to make respectful and professional corrections, as well as receive them when we are wrong and say thanks; especially in public. If they respond postively and fix it that is good, if not get their PII and report it to the CofC.
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CW4 Brian Haas
CW4 Brian Haas
>1 y
He absolutey positively did not do the right thing. He let her get away with disrespect to an NCO on top of being out of uniform. I sincerely hope these are not the standards that you would want in your brigade by Specialists and E-6s. I really hope you just misread the original post.
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COL Charles Williams
COL Charles Williams
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I am confused? I meant he did the right thing by confronting her, not the outcome. Perhaps there were better ways to handle it, but he did confront her. Many many leaders will not even do that. Many leaders walk away or by corrections and confrontations. My point was he did the right thing by confronting her. I believe I also said what to do if the person does not respond accordingly? And for the record, I expected everyone in the organizations I had the privilege to lead to follow my lead, and to meet the same standard regardless of rank. What would you recommend you do, if Soldier blows you off in a public place? I thought my response was pretty straight forward.
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SPC Unit Supply Specialist
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in a situation such as this, in a very public area, I would have shown her my ID asked to speak with her privately where she would have the opportunity to correct herself without public embarrassment.
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SFC Senior Operations Nco &Amp; Travel Executive To The Senior Enlisted Advisor, Cngb
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Yes, I say we make the corrections immediately. Unacceptable! I know it's all wrong and we do have to say something and fix it. By the way that is not a PT cap it is a watch cap authorized with the green fleece and is not part of the IPFU.
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SGT Team Leader
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You mean to tell me that the WATCH CAP is not for WATCHING movies? I mean, it seems like a logical assumption to me!
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SSG Section Sergeant
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ooooohhhhhhhh man.
excuse my expression SSG Dontre' Robinson but i believe that you approaching this soldier in public is the right thing to do regardless. With a good portion of these new soldiers joining the army, with my explicit opinion, -a good portion of them are not the best to look at and see "soldier" with many of these newer generation "soldiers" not taking what is learned in BASIC to heart. you decided to make a commitment to the Army for the time you are serving. Get off your ate up ass and get right.

I dont believe in public humiliation, however with her rolling her eyes at you i would have had no issues continuing to ask for her company information, and paying a visit. As with being a SPC (as i am) its a bit harder for me to pull off, but when i was able to have a conversation with that soldiers NCO, things turn out quite interesting.

The 7 army values are there for a reason -what happened to them? apparently its something to be ignored.
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PO3 Devin Gallagher
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I don't put up with attitude. If she hadn't given an attitude and had decided to care about what you had just said than it would have been different, but in this case I don't care if a million civilians were around you don't disrespect someone of a higher rank regardless of whether or not they are from your command and give them an attitude when you know they are right. That is unacceptable. I was always told that I should introduce myself rank and last name first before I say anything so that way they know who they are dealing with and then they can't give me any excuse as to why they gave me attitude later on.
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SGT Jeremy Walton
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Once a soldier, always a soldier. 24/7/365. You represent the military and should always conduct yourself as. Politely ask her to fix the problem and move on
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SPC Richard Cole
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On the spot corrections are warranted at any time.not wearing the uniform correctly is disrespectful and an e4 should know that.lock that as up and correct that trooper
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