Posted on Jan 14, 2015
On the spot corrections in public; when is it appropriate?
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This weekend me and my GF decided to get out and go to the movies not near any military base once so ever (maybe a Reserve or NG training facility could be near by). So I'm glancing around notice a uniform on a young lady and her hair down with a PT cap on inside of the mall. I didn't loose my mind at first because it could be anyone just wearing the uniform these days. As I get closer to her I notice she has on SPC rank. I told my GF that I have to say something to her and of course she didn't understand. When I approached the SPC and her civilian male acquaintance, I asked her was she in the Army and she quickly replied "yes". So I asked her did she know she was in complete violation of Army Regs she says "yes". The female rolled her eyes at me and I could tell she was going to have
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
a attitude with me so I quickly removed myself from the situation. So at what point do we as leaders make a on the spot correction in public or remove ourselves from the situation? I felt at the time as a NCO I should have done more to make her fix herself, but on the other hand I didn't want to make a scene at the mall and in public. SPC Ware I definitely will remember you forever.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 709
I would have asked for he ID, made a mental note of her/their names and then made them do pushups till they couldn't do more. What has happened to the Army? Afraid of hurting feelings? Maybe its the Infantryman in me but enough is enough. Do it right or get out.
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Should have absolutely made the correction. She's representing the uniform. First question I would have asked her is why is she in uniform? Was she still on duty? If she's Reserve of NG once they sign out during the weekend drill (aka Battle Assembly), they're done - meaning uniform comes off.
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Not sure about the Army but if you're in the Marine Corps it's kind of expected. If it's someone of the same rank or higher I wouldn't have said anything but if I'm a Sergeant and see E-4s and below not wearing the uniform properly or acting disorderly (within reason), you're compelled to say something with tact (of course). It would take a lot for me to have read the riot act to them even back then.
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This is a tough one.
I would suggest that after identifying the person as a soldier and validating it via having them present I.D. take down their information and report it to their chain of command, snap a few photos as evidence.
If you're near the base (which it sounds like this was) then have the S.M. call their chain of command on the spot to self report and depart to correct the situation.
And because some service members can be a little shady, if they appear to cooperate and leave, maybe find a nice bench somewhere to sit and people watch and see if they're still meandering about the mall afterwards.
I would suggest that after identifying the person as a soldier and validating it via having them present I.D. take down their information and report it to their chain of command, snap a few photos as evidence.
If you're near the base (which it sounds like this was) then have the S.M. call their chain of command on the spot to self report and depart to correct the situation.
And because some service members can be a little shady, if they appear to cooperate and leave, maybe find a nice bench somewhere to sit and people watch and see if they're still meandering about the mall afterwards.
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Were it me regardless of if she was gonna have an attitude or not I would have made her correct it and scene at the mall be damned because as an NCO you lead the way and as a SPC she is on her way up the ranks as well, so if a senior NCO can't address the issue and make a correction so she would know better, then when she gets into that position she would have done the exact same thing you did, absolutely nothing to put that soldier back on track.
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Back in the day..lol Ft Hood used to have Courtesy Patrols in the Killeen mall. Then in Korea we used to have what we called leadership walks, through the ville. Part of the duty included conducting on the spot corrections, and to prevent soldiers from acting ignorant. So yes corrective action was warranted..
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I would have asked her why she was in uniform, followed by, "If you're going to wear it in public, then wear it correctly."
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That's when you pull out your ID card, ask her to step aside somewhere off to the side. Tell her who you are and ask to see her ID card. Get her full name, unit and command info. Tell her she has the choice to: A) fix herself now, B) remove all name, rank, and Army tapes, or C) you will be contacting her command. If she doesn't want to give up the info you can always see if it's on AKO and/or use a base locator service. As NCO's, if we don't make these corrections our young soldiers cannot grow and represent as they should.
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I agree with the fact that you stepped away from a situation that could escalated out of control quickly. I also agree with the fact that an on the spot correction needed to be made, however in that case I would have, like others have commented, pulled her to the side once she answered yes and made myself known and handle it "within house". One reason for this suggestion would be the boyfriend could have misinterpreted what you were trying to do and could have attacked you as a means of protecting her. Most civilians are unaware of the standards that we, as members of the all volunteer, PROFESSIONAL Army have to abide by. I am glad and thankful every day for the those values that were instilled in me to care about my appearance in and out of uniform.
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What if a PFC sees an NCO breaking regs should the PFC correct the NCO and face their attitude or go quietly about their business? Because I have gotten in trouble for correcting a SGT when I was stationed at Fort Leavenworth. I am not agreeing with what the soldier done I would have even corrected her as well ( I still do that when I see military people out of regs, Seen a recruiter the other day out of regs). But I see in all the responses that all the higher ups have the I am better than you attitude. Yes the rank demands respect I get that but also treating a person with respect will get you some too. I had a hard time while I was in I did everything I was told to do but yet always got in trouble for something, I was over weight by Army standards but yet I could max out PT test but yet still had to do extra PT after shift. It is sad when certain soldiers are treated differently.... I was treated differently but that is another topic to be discussed and I would like your feedback on it when I do post because I would like to get see how higher ups would handle it and did what was done to me. I need to get it out there because it has been eating me up since it happened to me in 2001
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Whenever I see anyone in public doing something not in regulation or making a correction, if I am not in uniform I pull out my ID card and identify myself. I then quietly let them know what I see is wrong and if they know that whatever the infraction is is wrong. I then have them fix themselves and if they start to give me an attitude that is when I start asking the questions on what unit, first sergeant, etc.... That generally gets them to drop the attitude real quick. Most of the time if you are polite and use tact the Soldiers correct themselves.
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This is not going to be popular but here goes. What effort has that troop up to this point in her career to prove she has earned the right to be part of a proud service that requires self discipline, willingness to change, pride in self, unit, service, and country. What over-whelming need does that troop, have to show, not only does her uniform and behavior reflect who she is but, who she serves with directly, I.E. her peers. Has she gone through a trial that changes her physically intellectually and spiritually for the rest of her life.Can she truly consider that up to the point where he she it stepped of the bus a Camp OMFG and was treated to (x) no of weeks where he she did not know if she was going to make it. when she made and graduated she knew that for the rest of her life she can look at that moment and say I have truly accomplished what I previously thought impossible. Is she head a shoulders above her civilian peers in formal and informal training. does her position mean something? The fact is it does not as much as it should. Service is a privilege not an entitlement I agree get her unit information call Provost Marshall make sure her CSM knows and understands the nature and scope of how she violated regulation. But THAT IS A BANDAID fix the problem. Fix who and how you indoctrinated and train these troops and you will only have this kind of stupid problem on a rare occasion.
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Remember, both you and she are representatives, Ambassadors if you will, of the US Army in public. Her uniform violation should result in a quiet on the spot correction, perhaps in an area slightly separated from her company and yours ("May I speak with you over here for a moment?"). In the event that she still desired to make a scene, I would have noted her name and rank in full view of her, and then walked away, apologizing to the GF for the embarrassment, and then used the anecdote to educate my Soldiers. I would keep her name in case she makes any groundless claims against you to her COC, who clearly would not have the whole story until you weighed in when they asked around.
SSG Loran Osborne, USA (Ret.)
SSG Loran Osborne, USA (Ret.)
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as NCO's you have a responsibility to teach the younger "SM's", just cause you dont like the rules , maybe you shouldn't be a "NCO"., now get your F-ing hand out of your pockets.
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I would have probably lost my mind once she rolled her eyes. My only advise is don't feel that you do not have any authority to do your job and remember there is just only so much you can legally do without getting yourself in trouble (i.e. wall to wall counseling). She clearly thinks that you can't do anything to her however she needs dose of reality. The guy she was with is probably her NCO based on the fact you're at CP Humphreys in S. Korea.
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I guess minor infractions don't and didn't bother me too much. I kind of took people having to make minor corrections in non-duty situations as being on power trips. I don't think you should abuse the uniform, blouse open, cap askew, flip-flops instead of boots, or denigrating the uniform and service by being drunk in public, getting in fights, or committing crimes. But, ear buds, hair down, not 100% shaven, hands in pockets, etc. in non-duty situations and non-military locales, not a problem for me. I don't think civilians notice it or care. My main thing is they show up for duty, properly presented, and perform as I ask, in garrison, the field, and combat. There are a lot of new rules retirees don't know about and I don't think just because you're a vet gives you the right to correct a presently serving soldier. Anyway, I see pictures and situations everyday where soldiers, both senior and junior are not the way I was taught to be and got chewed out for not being. It's tough enough being in the military. Some relaxation is needed. I say, lighten up. Correct serious infractions, ignore the others.
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As an NCO you are always on duty. You always make a correction. If you recieve attuide, after identifying your self, you are always within reg to pull that soldier to the side and further "correct" the situtation.
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Well ssg. I give it to you for for restraining yourself because that would not have been me. As soon as she rolled her eyes it was disrespectful, distasteful and in my eyes unbecoming of a soldier. And not saying that you were embarrassed but that's what she was trying to do and I honestly would have made her feel embarrassed rite in front of her civilian friend. That's just me I guess tho. At the end of it all im out not by choice but by Iraq and I still make on the spot corrections I d not care who they or their rank if they are out of uniform and I see it it makes the entire army/military look bad. And no one will get my boots or flag spit on because they feel like being in the wrong.
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