Posted on Apr 2, 2015
Rankism. Is there such a thing in the military?
407K
1.25K
442
52
51
1
Rankism-discrimination against people on the grounds of rank.
There has always been grudges held at the various levels but for what reason. Countless times a new 2LT walks into a situation where he is instantly disliked for merely showing up. How many times have we thought of a new Private as automatically going to make mistakes so you have to treat as such. Or, the CSM that everyone thinks they only care about Uniform violations and walking on the grass.
Recently we found that SMA Dan Dailey revise the tattoo policy. I, for one, didn't see that coming. I didn't think a new SMA would make such a change like that for soldiers. At times we feel that they are so far disconnected from the soldiers they may not have us in mind.
Is this something that we face. Do soldiers with a certain rank or position get grouped in the a mass assumption of others that had that rank in the past?
There has always been grudges held at the various levels but for what reason. Countless times a new 2LT walks into a situation where he is instantly disliked for merely showing up. How many times have we thought of a new Private as automatically going to make mistakes so you have to treat as such. Or, the CSM that everyone thinks they only care about Uniform violations and walking on the grass.
Recently we found that SMA Dan Dailey revise the tattoo policy. I, for one, didn't see that coming. I didn't think a new SMA would make such a change like that for soldiers. At times we feel that they are so far disconnected from the soldiers they may not have us in mind.
Is this something that we face. Do soldiers with a certain rank or position get grouped in the a mass assumption of others that had that rank in the past?
Posted in these groups: 
Leadership
Rank
Leadership Rank
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 142
157
155
2
I say just go to the PX and see if you find any parking spots that say "SSG's Only." *Drops mic
(157)
(2)
(0)
(0)
CPL Ernest Hoag
CSM Ralph Hernandez observation: "mic drops" tend to attract "truth bombs." Well played!
(2)
(0)
120
120
0
One of my Battalion Command teams just did a BN Cdr/CSM and Company Cdr/1SG for a Day with several PFCs and SPCs. They had to do all the briefings, meetings, and functions for a few days. Included Brigade Command and Staff, Training Meetings etc. Feedback was that the junior soldiers had no idea how much was going and what their leaders did, often unsolicited on their behalf. I scuffed up their Battalion over late awards, Evaluations, etc. XO worked them over on maintenance etc. I think walking a mile in someone's shoes helps build understanding. Understanding and shared experience builds Trust and breaks down barriers.
(120)
(0)
LCpl Stephen Arnold
Flip side to that, Sir, is that senior leaders get a better understanding of how hard their troops work as well. That exchange is brilliant; my team commander did it when I was a young Marine, and he and I, upon the end of the day a debrief, had a new understanding of each other as did our fellow Marine teammates. And, I must say, I couldn't wait to hand the keys to the car back to dad, so to speak.
(1)
(0)
SGT Jay Holland
One of my old units did a FRG fund raiser by raffling off the command and staff positions for a day.
(0)
(0)
SPC David Roberts
But are the BN CDR/CSM and Company CO going to do a PFC/SPC for a day? The 1SG has already been there, of course. The CSM has probably forgotten.
(0)
(0)
SFC Casey O'Mally
When is the PFC for a day scheduled, so the BN/BDE CDR and CSM can see what it is like at the bottom?
(0)
(0)
94
94
0
Of course there is. We all make assessments based on "limited data" all the time. In other words, we "profile."
When you see an NCO, you treat them like an NCO. When you see an officer, you treat them like an officer. When you see a General, you treat them like a General. Unfortunately... when you see a junior service member (non-NCO), you treat them like none of the above.
Rank generally denotes "scope of responsibility, " as well as "time in service." TIS however is much more fluid and easy to mistake. There is no way to know on first glance that the 2LT had 12 years in, making SSG before going Green to Gold. There's no way to know if the SGM has 20 or 30 years. What we do know is a LT or a SGT, or a CPT "should" be able to handle anything up to X, and if it is above X, we need to ensure we are properly equipping them for the task.
That's where we often fail. Rank doesn't denote capability, it denotes invested power.
When you see an NCO, you treat them like an NCO. When you see an officer, you treat them like an officer. When you see a General, you treat them like a General. Unfortunately... when you see a junior service member (non-NCO), you treat them like none of the above.
Rank generally denotes "scope of responsibility, " as well as "time in service." TIS however is much more fluid and easy to mistake. There is no way to know on first glance that the 2LT had 12 years in, making SSG before going Green to Gold. There's no way to know if the SGM has 20 or 30 years. What we do know is a LT or a SGT, or a CPT "should" be able to handle anything up to X, and if it is above X, we need to ensure we are properly equipping them for the task.
That's where we often fail. Rank doesn't denote capability, it denotes invested power.
(94)
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SFC (Join to see) When I first got to the Fleet, I met a 2nd Lt. This was right after the Marine Corps got rid of Intel WO's. He had been "promoted" from W2 to 01... and he said he was thinking about putting his old lipstick Lt bar under his pocket flap so he could show people. He had reached the point of laughter about it, but "being treated like a Lt" was a hell of a lot different than "being treated like a WO or a SSgt"
(1)
(0)
LT Charles Baird
I like the comment above about the difference between an A1C and a Butter bar is the A1C has been promoted twice - Well, not necessarily, if the Air Force is still doing what they were doing when I enlisted in 1987 then you could sign a 6 year enlistment and put on A1C right after basic training; so no you wouldn't be promoted twice but only once in 8 weeks.
(0)
(0)
TSgt (Join to see)
After 18 years of enlisted service both Air Force and Navy, I will be commissioned next month as a 1LT. I already know most officers will not immediately see me as an asset. I will just be an inexperienced officer.
(0)
(0)
Capt Elmer Lupton
TSgt (Join to see) - Show up in uniform with your full ribbon rack. That would be stunningly different from most 1Lts. Plus you're a 1Lt rather than 2Lt. Big difference.
(0)
(0)
43
43
0
I was talking to a group of warrant officer candidates today about this same subject. ONe question I received from a Soldier who three weeks ago was a SFC and in two weeks will be a Warrant Officer One is: How do we treat new Lieutenants? My answers is just like you want to be treated. Salute them, give them the courtesy due a superior rank, and offer you experience to enrich them. Likewise, treat your senior enlisted with respect and accept their experience to enrich you. Both may eventually be in position of authority or influence over your careers at some point.
(43)
(0)
LTC (Join to see)
Everyone has something to offer. As a new ENG PLT leader after some enlisted time, I had a SPC with a degree in aeronautical engineering. Tell me it wasn't wise to use his math skills when figuring out bridge spans and demolitions.
(2)
(0)
1LT Christopher Gonzales
Service members first respect the rank, but you have to work to get them to respect the person. Otherwise, everything else stops. No one grows.
I had great NCOs who poured their knowledge into me. Day 1 wasn't the same as my last day. Their development of me grew my ability, which allowed me to fight their battles and just get them resources. I know that on paper I was supposed to develop training plans. Instead, I asked them to tell me what they wanted and tell me what they needed. I needed to be trained to know what to ask and where to get it. Once I was sufficiently trained, they ran our calendar. I was just their resource for resources and development. The result? Better, more efficient training. 9.9/10 times they knew what we needed to do. So, I wasn't going to steer that ship. Instead, I just got them sails.
I had great NCOs who poured their knowledge into me. Day 1 wasn't the same as my last day. Their development of me grew my ability, which allowed me to fight their battles and just get them resources. I know that on paper I was supposed to develop training plans. Instead, I asked them to tell me what they wanted and tell me what they needed. I needed to be trained to know what to ask and where to get it. Once I was sufficiently trained, they ran our calendar. I was just their resource for resources and development. The result? Better, more efficient training. 9.9/10 times they knew what we needed to do. So, I wasn't going to steer that ship. Instead, I just got them sails.
(1)
(0)
41
41
0
If course we do, it's human nature. It's not just the military, the same thing happens in the civilian world. In the military you have to "prove" yourself before you are allowed to be part of the family.
Is it wrong? I don't know but it's been going on forever. I think the SMA did what any leader does. He evaluated the climate and saw something that needed to be addressed immediately. That happens almost every time a new leader comes in, this just happened to be at the highest level.
Is it wrong? I don't know but it's been going on forever. I think the SMA did what any leader does. He evaluated the climate and saw something that needed to be addressed immediately. That happens almost every time a new leader comes in, this just happened to be at the highest level.
(41)
(0)
SPC John Rickel
CSM Mike Olsden I think your spot on everyone wants to make a splash and be remembered. I think one major thing with SMA Dailey is his age, he's only 42. I think a big problem is once you've been in you kind of loose touch with your roots, this guy is the same age as a lot of PSGs and 1Sgt/MSgt I feel like he could very much still be close to his roots and make some very interesting changes.
(2)
(0)
23
23
0
Totally, CPT (Join to see), this goes without saying, and it's definitely readily apparent when you look at a Reservist.
As Reservists, we come into the game with a wide variety of prior experience, education, and age. I enlisted/graduated BMT as an E-3, 30 years old, with a Master's Degree. Quite different than the typical/stereotypical Junior E troop. I am the OIC in a section of enlisted Airmen who have degrees comparable to or that exceed mine, who have work and technical experience significantly more extensive than mine in their civilian careers. We definitely can't judge someone just by their stripes in the Reserves.
As Reservists, we come into the game with a wide variety of prior experience, education, and age. I enlisted/graduated BMT as an E-3, 30 years old, with a Master's Degree. Quite different than the typical/stereotypical Junior E troop. I am the OIC in a section of enlisted Airmen who have degrees comparable to or that exceed mine, who have work and technical experience significantly more extensive than mine in their civilian careers. We definitely can't judge someone just by their stripes in the Reserves.
(23)
(0)
SFC Mark Merino
Great job,everyone. It takes a lot of discipline not to get sucked into someone's personal attacks. Thanks for hanging tough until action could be taken. Keyboard ninjas and internet badasses need to seek life elsewhere.
(2)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
Spc Guma,
I couldn't agree more with you earlier comment. I am a reservist now, I was 82 years ago. I am a commo ncoic, but I am also a cell phone tower engineer on the civilian side. Still I often am told I couldn't understand certain things, by people who have a degree in liberal arts, but are my acting sigo, I respect the rank no matter what, and mean no disrespect what so ever, unfortunately most of the time the same curtiousy is not offered back when it comes to my background and extensive knowledge of frequency, and radio communications in general. I do think rankism exists and even more so leaders look at younger soldiers and judge immediately with out learning the persons background first. Thanks for the great topic of discussion mam, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the comments on this one.
I couldn't agree more with you earlier comment. I am a reservist now, I was 82 years ago. I am a commo ncoic, but I am also a cell phone tower engineer on the civilian side. Still I often am told I couldn't understand certain things, by people who have a degree in liberal arts, but are my acting sigo, I respect the rank no matter what, and mean no disrespect what so ever, unfortunately most of the time the same curtiousy is not offered back when it comes to my background and extensive knowledge of frequency, and radio communications in general. I do think rankism exists and even more so leaders look at younger soldiers and judge immediately with out learning the persons background first. Thanks for the great topic of discussion mam, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the comments on this one.
(1)
(0)
15
15
0
SFC Mark Merino
CPT (Join to see) don't get me wrong, I LOVED my Bradley and the firepower I had at my fingertips. But 11M was rough on getting schools available to the 11B's.....and everyone else. I got more schools in the air cav. Do you know if the Stryker transition is roughly the same length as the Bradley transition?
(1)
(0)
CPT (Join to see)
What transition? SFC Mark Merino When I got to a Mech unit they told what it was and told me to get in. There is a Bradley Leaders course at Benning. I am supposed to go but I went to Ranger first. I am due a visit back to Benning for that one. It is a month long. It is not required but is highly recommended if you are going to be in a leadership role in a mech unit. I don't know of anything like that for the Strykers. It is all at the unit level.
(1)
(0)
SFC Mark Merino
I noticed these transition courses when I go over the members's info seeking their blue ribbon. When I was at Benning (25 years ago!) the 11M course was 2 weeks if memory serves but that didn't touch on gunnery, or anything other than uploading/downloading the ready boxes. 1-5th, 19th, every 24/25th round when loading HE.......I still got it...lol
(1)
(0)
10
10
0
Eric, I am so dying for your promotion and assignment as a company commander!!! I want to see you go through all the "isms" and saluting Lieutenants and parade resting NCOs. You should do your own blog here to let us know how it goes... :-)
(10)
(0)
CPT (Join to see)
You will know. Although I am hoping to be a Team Commander rather than a Company commander.
(2)
(0)
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
I'm sure you'll accomplish whatever you set your mind to, CPT (Join to see) !!
(2)
(0)
9
9
0
Oh yea, its called a LOOP-HOLE and every Military Branch has them.
(9)
(0)
8
8
0
Of course it exists:
"WO never show up for PT" Probably, but then again most do it on their own.
"HE/SHE must be a WO because it's walking with hands in their pockets". TRUE, but so do some Commanders and Senior Enlisted.
How about the trusty "officers are smarter than enlisted because they went to college". I beg to differ. I have 2 Bachelors, and working on my Masters in History. Hell as a PFC I had a PL asked me for ideas and opinions on decisions he had to make.
Or recently, I'm in an in-processing Company waiting to ship to my actual unit, and E6 and above do not have to show up for morning accountability (a phone call will do), but E5 and below have to show up. Because of course we are not trustworthy enough to call in as the other ranks.
Or E7 and above can drive themselves to the briefings or in-processing appointments, but everyone else is too "dumb" to drive themselves. (Im 45 and traveled the world alone, so im sure I can find my way in a small post)
How about E7 and above can also call-in when signing in-out of leave while everyone else has to drive to post and do it. This one really bugs me.
etc.
.
"WO never show up for PT" Probably, but then again most do it on their own.
"HE/SHE must be a WO because it's walking with hands in their pockets". TRUE, but so do some Commanders and Senior Enlisted.
How about the trusty "officers are smarter than enlisted because they went to college". I beg to differ. I have 2 Bachelors, and working on my Masters in History. Hell as a PFC I had a PL asked me for ideas and opinions on decisions he had to make.
Or recently, I'm in an in-processing Company waiting to ship to my actual unit, and E6 and above do not have to show up for morning accountability (a phone call will do), but E5 and below have to show up. Because of course we are not trustworthy enough to call in as the other ranks.
Or E7 and above can drive themselves to the briefings or in-processing appointments, but everyone else is too "dumb" to drive themselves. (Im 45 and traveled the world alone, so im sure I can find my way in a small post)
How about E7 and above can also call-in when signing in-out of leave while everyone else has to drive to post and do it. This one really bugs me.
etc.
.
(8)
(0)
CPT (Join to see)
You make many valid points. I am not a fan of the "this rank can do this" approach.
(1)
(0)
SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA
CPT (Join to see) indeed sir, I had a hard time explaining to some my soldiers (E3 and below who were married and with kids) that I had to walk with them whenever they had to go to S1 (local CO policy) simply because of their rank.
If you can work on a multimillion attack helicopter, balance married life/parenthood with army life, then you can damn sure walk yourself to S1 across the street.
Have a good day sir, and go Cats!
If you can work on a multimillion attack helicopter, balance married life/parenthood with army life, then you can damn sure walk yourself to S1 across the street.
Have a good day sir, and go Cats!
(3)
(0)
Maj Dan Hunter
"Hell as a PFC I had a PL asked me for ideas and opinions..." I'd call this effective leadership.
(2)
(0)
1SG Alan Boggs
CPT (Join to see) There are valid reasons why certain ranks can do certain things.
Lets face it, Joe's are going to screw up, its normal. They are going to be late, they are going to missing from rank, ect... There will need to be a accountability formation for the Joe's and that means there will need to be a team leader there to check on him and a squad leader there to organize the whole cluster fug and report who is there and who is missing.
Every person in the army from E5 up is responsible for 3-4 people. Team leaders have 3 soldiers, squad leaders have 3 team leaders, platoon sergeants and platoon leaders have 3 squad leaders, first sergeants and commanders have 3 PSG and PLs, Bn CMD and CSM have... Yup 3 COs and 1SGs.
Lets face it, Joe's are going to screw up, its normal. They are going to be late, they are going to missing from rank, ect... There will need to be a accountability formation for the Joe's and that means there will need to be a team leader there to check on him and a squad leader there to organize the whole cluster fug and report who is there and who is missing.
Every person in the army from E5 up is responsible for 3-4 people. Team leaders have 3 soldiers, squad leaders have 3 team leaders, platoon sergeants and platoon leaders have 3 squad leaders, first sergeants and commanders have 3 PSG and PLs, Bn CMD and CSM have... Yup 3 COs and 1SGs.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google