Shaved heads in basic training; is this mandatory? If it is, then why and why only for males?

CPT (Join to see) - Looks stupid to who? My hair was long before the Army and is long now that I'm retired and no female I've dated had or have had an issue with it. You don't think it hasn't taken several years for my hair to grow out or the fact I felt my hair looked stupid the whole time? As for bald women that's your opinion no one wants to see that.

CPT (Join to see) - Whiner.

CPT (Join to see) - Not to mention that the returning hair would be IMPOSSIBLE to control! What a mess. So, no. Leave women with their hair the way it is. As long as you keep it up and off your collar, its all fine.

Say louder Top I think the guys hair is covering his ears you might have to yell some lol I'm with you Top

SGT Linda Moss good luck enforcing THAT one!

SPC Jimmy Rooks I agreed!

SPC Jimmy Rooks I - Folks are screaming that all Service members be treated equally until it becomes time to be a soldier. Then different people want exceptions for different things Either all should be treated the same, especially with outward appearance and meeting qualifications standards for job etc there may be room for some different standards for different MOS.

CPT William Jones - And a lot of the people screaming about equality for soldiers ARE NOT and NEVER HAVE BEEN enlisted. Maybe this shows my "elitist" generational military family history, but I feel that if they are not going to step up and sign up, then they should just keep their noses out of "our" business. I mean, it doesn't concern them.

However the personal achievement, sorry I don't expect that you could be a physically reliable combat replacement for male Rangers. The Army has gone to far...

That opinion and four quarters should be enough to get you a quarter pounder with cheese off the dollar menu.

if women can not shave there heads what happens if a women who works around flame or spinning machinery hazards wants to shave her head for safety reasons ?

Exactly.

Appearance-AR 670-1. We are a team and needs to be remembered. Active, Guard,Reserve,Veterans...Females and Males are different and rightfully so. Some have the skill to go SF,Spec Ops, but some are more office, legal,Medical so be you-but follow the rules too. Getting sand out of hair gel is HELL ladies-I know, so maybe short hair while in a good to have, because field exercises are hell. And heat cooks it into hair fast and damaged hair is needing to be cut and short.

People keep saying to show Soldiers... but it's obvious it's only some Soldiers. So it's not uniformity. It's some uniformity.

Amen SSG WOODS, I disagreed on hazing question with a LTC and SSG in good taste I think :) LTC response tactful but I didn't understand his response, it was a PhD level vocabulary and grammar, so my 6 years of college not enough! If you would read it and tell me your thoughts I need help Sergeant :) TY so much! Doc Shon Hill

SSG V. Michelle Woods
A woman's hair is NOT a "little sacrifice"!!!!!!!! Are you crazy??? This is a prime example of why women to NOT get treated "equally". You make me sad for all the women actually fighting to get rid of the double standards in the military.

SSG V. Michelle Woods - Sure because your hair is more special than mine. I spent 4 years growing it out before the Army and the last 5 years growing it back out.

Why are we debating what is NOT in 670-1? It isn't a regulations therefore we should shut our pie holes. Much of this conversation is degenerating into which sex has it worse. Useless inflammatory trash.

YES!

That is a fair point!! I hadn't thought of that one.

When I joined the navy in 1979 a shaved head for men was considered faddish and it was unauthorized (you actually get a "Buzz Cut" in boat camp, not razor shaved). In the late 80s they authorized it for those with male pattern baldness and eventually to all personnel.

Don't forget psycho phase Britney Spears! ;)

During standardized training, they are not supposed to look good or like anything at all. After training is over, they can look like a human again. During training, if there is a reason for anyone to have their hair cut, that reason should apply to all equally. We are all trainees and NOTHING else.

Sounds like SSG Burns was like my Plt Sgt. who had a thing for the enlisted ladies, I learned quickly there was no equality between male a female soldiers, they made rank way faster laying on their back than any male working hard .

What in the world led you to that conclusion, PFC Andrew "Tommy" M.? Please let me know exactly what SSG Robert Burns wrote to lead you down that path.
I wish you had put your misguided comment elsewhere.
LTC Kevin B. SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"

I wouldn't expect the Corps to shave female heads but there should be a uniform hair style for all female recruits

Cpl Earl Armstrong - Technically there is. If your hair is short, then it must not touch the bottom of your collar in the back. If its long, you must wear it up. In my day, pony tails (which are the easiest thing to do) were not allowed. I think most women go for the bun, because its easiest for long hair. After basic, there is some freedom to do other things with it... as long as it fits under your hat. Like a French Twist, etc. I had a short curly perm haircut in basic and Tech training. After that, I let it grow. August 4, 1984 (the Saturday before I left for Basic) was the LAST TIME I was in a hair salon. Its just easier to keep my very thin and fine hair in a bun. Not that I have much, it grows slower than a snail's pace. But, Its just so easy to roll out of bed, twist that mess into a bun and pin it down. Its not in my face, its not in my eyes, and I am comfortable with it. And yes, I still e-fold the towels and underwear. 36 years later. They do a great job of training/brainwashing us.

My comments did not say what or who should change hair cuts only that the reg should be the same for all soldiers. I haven't been to basic for about 50 years however I have a son that went off active duty after 11 years and we talk and I never saw a shaved head in basic nor did he.cut very close but not shaved. Females have wanted to have all slots open and able to do anything and I think that is great there should be only one standard You either make the minimum standard and are excepted or don't and are rejected. Maybe some MOS cant have a different standard that others but that is for a different time

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter - I have been thinking about this a lot. It would be very, very interesting to continue to watch females in the military, and attitudes coming into basic training over the next 20 to 30 years. I'm an "old woman" now; I was raised in a rural area in the 60s and 70s and early 80s. Female children were raised in my household and family to be quiet, quick, obedient, unobtrusive, etc. It sounds repressive today, but it simply was what it was. I can remember hearing our TI say that he was SO HAPPY that he'd "drawn the short straw" and gotten the flight of females for the rotation. Because we were easier to deal with. We didn't think we'd been promoted to General on the first day like many of the males. We did what we were told without questioning. If something was a rule, that's what we did. We were cleaner and neater (according to him) and so on and so forth. Back in the day, it was kind of expected that girls would be raised to be ladylike and supportive of others like their husbands and families, and I'm sure that attitude carried over into making it easier to train us. So maybe the shaved head issue wasn't necessary for females. Not to say that males are hard headed. (I am laughing!) I am a mother, have five kids - two daughters, and three sons. The boys... God help me. You say no. They immediately run to do THAT THING. No matter how stupid, short sighted, dangerous. The girls would be like... ok. And that was mostly the end of it. Except Shealynn. Who was probably an easy child all things considered, but she was stubborn. She and the three boys grew up and enlisted. I have four veterans today. Shea was blown up in Afghanistan. And its kind of funny in an odd and ironic way, which totally makes me believe that God has a plan and its a good plan even if you don't understand it (something like some military orders! Lol) to see that the unattractive and negative trait of "stubborn" in a child actually translates as an adult into fiercely determined. Strong. Focused. Driven. Goal oriented. All very positive things! And, turns out she needed that to recover from her injuries. I'm so proud of her I could EXPLODE. Seriously. We raised our daughters differently than I was raised, to be confident, etc. Maybe that translates into something important in the long term. So, maybe with the way girls are being raised to be today, believing in equality with male children, maybe shaving heads will become necessary in the future to "shock" them into compliance the way it is for men.

A1C Lisa Casserly - I was also raised in a rural area but during the 50's and 60's and later in the 1960's when i entered the armed Forces there was only one female Full colonel in each branch of the service that headed up the woman's branch be they WAVES, WAC's or WAF's and that was the director of each branch for women. It wasn't even possible to go further. My Mom's Aunt spent 30 years in the US Navy to include the 40's, 50's and into the 60's. I did find often though as You mentioned that the females were neater than the males and less likely to have attitudes back then. I do know My Mom's aunt though was no pushover and was completely in charge. I don't find that My grown daughter or granddaughters though don't think in an independent manner, they sure do and take charge ! Having said that there is however no question they are females and aren't going to be walked over by anyone. My own opinions are formed by performance being the major factor, being a team player but that doesn't require You to surrender Your identity. My salute also to all Your Sons and Your Daughter for their service in the US Armed Forces.

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter - I will grant you that!! My older daughter and the younger one were pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum. Neither was ladylike! Lord. We have had several conversations about how LADIES DON'T SPIT. Camels Spit. not ladies. Did it do any good? No. But, where Shealynn was so stubborn and wanted to do things HER WAY, BY HERSELF, DiAnn was ... well, she didn't have a strong personality. She could be influenced easily, and that also translated to her being easy to manipulate and mislead and abuse. It broke my heart to see that happen to her, because she was a good-hearted person, willing and happy to please others. And then, when she was killed in a car accident 21 months ago... my heart broke in a whole different way. Yes. I agree with your assessment; trying to get people to be team players without stomping out the very things that make the individual differences that make us valuable. I suppose that's the same as raising kids; you want them to be good, and obedient, but you also have to handle them carefully so you do not break their spirit. Because after that, its impossible to "fix" them. And yes, its also fascinating to see the advances that women are making in leadership roles in the military. I can't wait to see what happens with the next generation. Yes, I do expect to see at least some of the grandchildren enlist. I'm still desperately hoping for granddaughters to continue the legacy!

Equality for all, just the women get to be more equal than men when it comes to the grooming standards.....just saying

PO1 Jeffrey Pennala All animals are equal. Some animals are more equal than others.

PO1 Jeffrey Pennala - escpecially when you go to the field and there are 2 shower/latrines. 1 for the 120 males and the other for the 3 females....

PO1 Jeffrey Pennala - I see your point. But in many ways I believe that there is a case for "separate but equal" based on sex. We are NOT created equal in that respect. Physically we have different musculature, different bone density. I know HAIR is a small thing, but many of us are totally happy to be that "different". In all honestly, if we were all the same, we'd all be either male or female, (or sexless) and reproduce by splitting like amoebas.

Unless the regulations change, everything is just opinions.

I'm more concerned about going to the field and having 2 showers/latrines. 1 for the 120 males and the other one for the 3 females......

This forum is about discussion. "What do the regs say?" is not the "right answer."

Yes, that is true. I was in Basic in late summer of 1984; we had a girl from Guam who had the most amazing super long, never-touched-by-a-scissors head of thick, lusterous blue-black hair. And because it did not fit under her hat, we had to cut off what seemed like a MILE of it in the supply room. It was heartbreaking to see it laying in the trash can. But standards are standards.

One other thing to note is as comments mention if your hair did not allow you to properly wear your headgear, protective mask, or any other equipment you were required to wear on your head, properly then it had to be cut. No arguments, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Thank you Cowboy! Good to see a familiar face in this TOTALLY unfamiliar territory.

SP5 Jeannie Carle you're very welcome Jeannie.

When I was in Basic in 1984, there was a girl from Guam with us, training for Air Guard. She literally had hair to her knees, it had never been touched by a scissors. It was a thing of beauty... I was so jealous, since I can't grow nice hair! And she could not get it under her hat, there was just SO MUCH and it was so thick. She begged us to cut it off for her. Which we did, with much regret. We went into the supply room and cut hunks of it off until we could get it to fit under her hat and be within standards. And we only cut the absolute minimum. I think we were all broken hearted over it, seeing all that lustrous blue-black hair laying in the trash can.

It is very seldom someone says something that has enough validity to make me change my mind. Not that Im stubborn, it's just that most of what I've seen in regards to this argument relates to the easy "make everyone equal by making them all perform to male standards" nonsense.

I believe you are sincere with your response and I appreciate that. As much as I absolutely despise the idea of service members having to lose their gender identity, (I can't believe Im about to admit this) I think you may be right about how "anything short of uniformity degrades our cohesiveness". I think the situation we're in now where males are constantly pitted against females proves your point.

I will say however that gender isn't simply an outward characteristic. It's a scientific fact that does separate species of all kinds. Regardless, you have my wheels turning sir.

SSG V. Michelle Woods I respect your thought thought-fullness and your willingness to keep thinking about this topic. Continued willingness to question our previously held ideas is what allows us to grow.

Sex (as distinct from gender-a cultural and behavioral thing) is indeed a scientific fact that separates animals of all species, and it does restrict the behavior roles of most animals. What separates us from animals is our mind. We have the ability to overcome the dictates of our animal origin.

I think it it important to consider what we expect of our Sailors, Soldiers, Airmen and Marines, and those in specific specialties, then hold them to those standards. What we do is combat, and combat doesn't care what your sex or race or heritage is or who you pick as a life partner. The only things combat cares about are how fast, how strong, how smart, how much endurance, how much toughness, and how much love you have for your fellow warriors.

I really hope the armed forces move toward considering specific specialties and their standards before we have infantrymen running around with hair buns or finance clerks running around with shaved heads lol.
Being fit to fight is necessary as well as being able to process payroll requests however to go to those two extremes for EVERY service member would make us look ridiculous lol.

SSG you must remember every soldier may be required to fight as infantry under certain conditions. So mixed standards for MOS might not be such a good idea.Ie ww2 battle of lots of conversions to infantry Iraq people in convoys getting ambushed and finding their personal weapon didn't work because they failed to keep it clean. The Marines make it clear Every marine is a rifleman

So true. I know I'm certainly laughing right now...and rolling my eyes lol. 

SFC Mark Merino, I'm from the South *and* grew up in a seriously matriarchal family, so I have no problem problem playing both sides of the fence.

Let the men have their stubble as a rite of masculine passage while the women can keep their tresses because they don't need to be ugly to be fierce -- as any Southern lady can attest (and Texas counts as Southern in this regard, SSG V. Michelle Woods).

Texas seceded with the Confederacy and is absolutely Southern! We're just the most unique kind of South ;)

SSG V. Michelle Woods - Never ask where someone is from, if they are from Texas, they will tell you, if not, don't embarrass them. Jimmy Dean

Why just in Basic? Why not at all times?

Because this topic is about how female's don't have to change their hair styles as long as it is 670-1 compliant while in Basic, but males do.

The hair reg should state min/max length and have it apply equally to both sexes. This is from A guy that has worn his short since about 1960 or earlier, however if you want to grow yours to the floor im cool with that to.

SGT (Join to see) - The use the lowest cutting standard on the electric clippers. No razors are used

PO1 Jeffrey Pennala - I don't understand what your trying to say. The female Soldiers can get a hair cut as well if they like. However most choose not to. I would not call that special treatment thats just the way it is. As far as everyone getting a hair cut during BCT is a sore subject. I don't make enough and I don't write policy to change it. I haven't been a Drill Sergeant in many years but when I left the trail female Soldiers were not required to shave there heads.

MSG (Join to see) - I wanted to be sure because I'd never heard of razors used on the scalp in this era. With that clarification, it would be "buzz cut", not "shave" fro mmy understanding.

SFC(P) Josh Morgan thank you reading my response, the point I was trying to make was that folks were saying that when they were pushing boot campers through boot camp the time allotted for mens haircuts was a small window and was just enough time to buzz the hair off boot camp style. So if men and women were to receiving the same training how could it be possible for the women going through boot camp to have enough time to have their hair styled and their choices explained but the men only get a tiny window.
Which part of the training men were receiving was altered or cut out to allow for the women to have extra hair styling time? Wouldn't be easier to everybody get their cut hair off and just let that be a part of the experience for everyone who goes through boot camp, let the training be the same for everyone haircuts included.