Posted on Nov 23, 2013
SGM Matthew Quick
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Should a 4 year degree be a requirement for selection to e 9
With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate&nbsp;<span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 15px; white-space: nowrap;">degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?</span>
Posted in these groups: Graduation cap Education5a9f5691 College
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CMSgt Thomas Halcum
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I think you should have a 2 year degree to be E8-E9  When I retired from the Air Force in 97 If  you did not have it and went up against someone that did, you was sol.
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SFC Military Police
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A college degree is a pretty piece of paper that says you did a lot of reading and a lot of studying and spent a ridiculous amount of money on books that depreciate faster than cars. 
That being said mine looks really nice on my wall. However it didn't teach me one thing about leading soldiers in the Army. I know several very smart and very competent SGM/CSM's ( I hate reducing people to a pay grade ) that got to that level based on job performance. Of course there are those exceptions out there too. 
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CW3 Network Architect
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SFC Grudzinski, if that's all a college degree means to you, then either you didn't give yours your best effort, or your professors failed you, or more likely both, and it is truly worthless.  You get out of it what you put into it.

My earned college degrees mean a lot more to me than that superficial description you gave, and I earned all of them BEFORE I became an officer.  The knowledge helped me in my MOS, to be better at my job, and to be better in leading Soldiers at my job.
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MSG Military Science Instructor
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MSG(P) Quick,

 

I don't believe it should be a requirement, however; I do believe that all Senior NCOs should be pursuing a Bachelor's by the time they are being considered for promotion. Furthermore, many Senior NCOs are pursuing degrees as a check the block in order to look good on paper for a board.  I mentor my soldiers/NCOs to pursue an education/degree, but to ensure it is something they really are going to enjoy and use in the event they ETS out of the Army. 

 

Respectfully,

 

SFC Alicea, Luis A.

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MSG Bobby Ewing
MSG Bobby Ewing
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SFC Alicea,


I like how you are mentoring your subordinates with pursuing degrees to ensure it is in their best interest when they transition out the Army. That's right on line with one of my life long mentors have briefed to me.


SFC E

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MSG Military Science Instructor
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SFC E,

 

I believe we owe it to the Soldiers to mentor them to become better Soldiers or better civilians when they transition out of the army.  We as NCOs need to mold these young men and women to have goals in life not just the army.

 

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SFC Craig Dalen
SFC Craig Dalen
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I understand that it will help them once they leave the military but if we have every NCO and Soldier persuing degrees at the same time then who is really focusing on what is best for the unit, the mission and the Army then?
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MSG Military Science Instructor
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Well we all know that not all soldier will get an education while on active duty.  In addition, we need to manage our subordinates and conduct counseling in regards to education.  We do this to ensure they understand the priorities of the unit along with their responsibilities to complete whatever mission they may be given.  We cannot let the mission or the unit hinder our subordinates personal goals.  We as leaders just need to show them how to accomplish multiple goals without hinderence to the mission, unit and the soldiers personal goals.

 

 

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SPC Christopher Morehouse
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Unless there is a baccalaureate degree in "Being a Bad Ass NCO", then no. I mean, what value would it bring?

If you've been a mechanic for 20 years, is taking some piano lessons going to make you a better mechanic?
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SGM Matthew Quick
SGM Matthew Quick
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Not sure what "piano lessons" have to do with anything...that's not apart of a college education.

Earning a college degree doesn't necessarily make you better at your job (that's what certifications are for), it sets an example for your Soldiers and allows you to be apart of the conversation/decision making (or at least intelligent input)...not outside looking in.
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PO1 William Bargar
PO1 William Bargar
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The last time I checked......Enlisted was someone without a College Degree......But with that said in this modern day technology more and more education is required to succeed......You should NEVER stop learning regardless if you have a DEGREE or not!  I personally have an Associate Degree.....Big deal.  But I also made myself MARKETABLE by having a Class A Semi-Truck License and a Power plant license with the FAA and when I was active duty I did my Journeyman I think now in the Navy it is called USMAPS or something like that......Degree maybe, but there WILL BE a life OUTSIDE the Military someday.....You NEED to be MARKETABLE in the Job Market....."SKILLS"!  
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SPC Christopher Morehouse
SPC Christopher Morehouse
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Piano lessons have nothing to do with anything.  That's exactly the point.  What does an arbitrary 4 year degree have to do with being a good Sergeant Major?  About as much as being a good mechanic has to do with knowing how to play the piano. 

Passing over a good E-8 for E-9 over not having a BS in some bs seems pointless to me.   
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SGM Matthew Quick
SGM Matthew Quick
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A good leader will not seek an "arbitrary degree".
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SGT Sean Lynch
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Certainly. You don't want some hamhead in charge of Batallion!

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MSG William Cunningham
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I seriously doubt that having a B.S/B.A. will ever be a formal requirement for selection to CSM/SGM.  However, in some MOSs, you will not make CSM/SGM without it. 

 

I know a couple of MSG's who are very good at their job, and in my opinion, would make very good SGMs.  But, when they don't have a degree or haven't even taken a class.......what kind of message does that send to a board.

 

The emphasis should be on making yourself better.  If you have two Soldiers that have very similar records, but one is pursuing higher education and the other is not, who is going to get selected? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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SFC Ricardo Ruiz
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To answer the OP. YES. But I think the armed forces will have more success by offering more than a school option upon reenlist at least for soldiers who really want to pursue a degree while in service.
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SFC Retired
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Should it assist in being selected for E9.  Yes.  Should it be a prerequisite?  Hell no.  I see all to often leaders neglecting their subordinates due to the fact that they are focusing on progressing their career and not properly leading/mentoring their soldiers.  Having done some college i can see no way that it has benefited my leadership ability or any other sort of thing that could assist me, other that rehashing how i got though high school.  BSing papers and doing what it takes to get by and get that piece of paper that says I graduated.  Now it does show a certain level of self discipline to be able to attain such a thing but so does going through schools in the military and actually learning something that can benefit the unit.  Which is something people seem to be forgetting nowadays is that schools such as Air Assault, Ranger, Pathfinder etc. are to benefit the unit not just the individual soldier's career progression.  They are designed to further the units capabilities by creating SMEs that can disseminate the information to the soldiers that havent had the opportunity to go, but thats a whole 'nother topic for discussion.
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CW3 Counterintelligence Technician
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I believe degrees should be a requirement and it should be tied to rank.  That said, I don't think we should penalize NCOS and WOs by making them pay out of their pocket.  An officer can attend ILE and walk out with a degree (ditto War College and other degree producing schooling).  We can tie it to NCO/WO PME IOT allow them to have the opportunity.  Advanced civil schooling is offered during ILE - why not during BNCOC/ANCOC (forgive me - I have been retired for a few years and I know the names have changed).  If you want to go above and beyond you can use the GI Bill and/or TA (Masters/PhD).
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1SG Gene Wood
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I enlisted in the Active Army in 1983 as an infantryman.  There was an education center, but the most you could do is take CLEP exams, SATs, ACT and things of that nature, there was no time for traditional college courses and no internet to take online courses like today.  I got out and went into the reserve component in 1987 and managed to take some traditional college courses accumulating 60 credit hours before becoming and AGR soldier in the National Guard.  Contrary to what some Active component soldiers believe, AGR soldiers are not glorified receptionists and in my daily duties I found myself seriously lacking written communication skills.  I went back to school when I could, deployments, military training, and duty always came first, and my college education came when I could fit it in. In the end, I managed to complete my degree when I was an E8.  Competition for E8 and E9 in the AGR world is very stiff and a good PT score or NCOER was not enough to get promoted.  You had to stand out, through your performance, your ability to communicate (speaking and writing), but most importantly by demonstrating personal initiative. I retired before making E9 because it was just time for me to go, but I am very glad I worked for that college degree because it has served me well in my second career after the Army.  

Getting a higher degree shouldnt just be about chasing promotion points, every class taken with good grades should be reflected on your NCOER as quantifiable bullet remarks that could possibly justify an excellent rating if the courses you are taking are relevent to your career path and goals. One more critical piece to the puzzle would be counseling our soldiers and junior NCOs to set goals and establish a career path that includes recommending college degrees, certificates and/or coursework that will be beneficial to them as they progress through the ranks. Speech, communitcations, business, writing, project management, supervision are a few education tracks that would not only be beneficial to an NCO as they progress through the ranks, but also have value in the civilian world after their military career is over. If you choose not to get a degree and wonder why your career stalled at E7, then it may be because the people examining your promotion packet are comparing it with others who have sacraficed their own time to pursue a degree and decided those individuals have shown more initiative then you. 

 
Finally, the internet and online training has made the pursuit of a degree accessible to anyone who is willing to make the time to get it done.  When I hear an NCO complain about getting paid less than their officer counterpart, I tell them to knock it off.  If you cant accept your payscale, do something about it and go to OCS; otherwise, stop complaining.  Dont discount the value of higher education, and dont devalue it by pursuing meaningless degrees for promotion points.  Should you have a degree to make E9?  Maybe not, but taking higher education out of the promotion picture all together isnt going to solve the problems in today's NCO corps. Draw down is here, and if you arent experiencing it yet, you will very soon.  When the Army cleans house during a draw down, they only keep the cream of the crop, so senior NCOs who chose to not pursue a degree may be forced to retire sooner then they intended, and all that noise you have been hearing about the economy recovering is a lot of bunk.  If you dont like the competition on the inside, wait until you get out here in the civilian world its a whole lot stiffer for jobs that dont pay nearly as well as an E7.   

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SGM Operations Sergeant Major
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I echo 1SG Wood's comments. I made E9 but had a college degree for several years. When you move upward you find, as he stated, that small things seperate you from the pack. A college degree, which is far easier to obtain nowadays, will go a long way towards doing that. It also says a lot about your personal initiative and intelligence, regardless of your background, etc.
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