Posted on Mar 15, 2016
Should I report unprofessional behavior through the Chain of Command or an IG complaint?
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NOTE: Member wished to be disassociated from this subject so it has been reposted here with the original comments.
Thank you,
-RP Staff
Recently was involved in an one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC. Since this is to get get a general consensus of what should be done, I would like to leave out names and places out but can include that the CPT's comments towards the SFC included: "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members.
Considering that if this was a lower to an NCO doing this, the Soldier would be crucified. If this was an NCO to an officer?, someone would be out of a job.
I heard one day that the moment you lose your bearing you lost the argument. So the SFC did the right thing by keeping professionally quiet and bringing up to the supervisor. Situation is now: such CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"...
What would be some appropriate ways to handle this situation?
Thank you,
-RP Staff
Recently was involved in an one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC. Since this is to get get a general consensus of what should be done, I would like to leave out names and places out but can include that the CPT's comments towards the SFC included: "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members.
Considering that if this was a lower to an NCO doing this, the Soldier would be crucified. If this was an NCO to an officer?, someone would be out of a job.
I heard one day that the moment you lose your bearing you lost the argument. So the SFC did the right thing by keeping professionally quiet and bringing up to the supervisor. Situation is now: such CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"...
What would be some appropriate ways to handle this situation?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 258
I would always try Chain of Command first. SFC needs to document the incident and bring it up his own chain, with a request to meet with CPT's chain in order to settle this professionally. SFC must admit up front any wrongdoing or culpability in the situation. This does two things: Shows his own professionalism/sense of accountability, and gives his story credibility. SFC needs his SGM or commander along for the meeting with CPT's CoC, but it will get settled there. And due to the unprofessional and ugly family comments by CPT, it will not go well for her once the meeting breaks. I would save IG for when the CoC fails.
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SFC (Join to see)
If I had been the SFC, I would have taken the officer into a more private space and told her what was what. Like: "If you ever speak to or about me that way in front of my soldiers/peers/family, so help me God, you and I will be going to see the Old Man. If you have an issue with me, tell me, not everyone else. Do you understand me Captain?"
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Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.
Let's just say that the Captain was correct in her assessment that the SFC was not up to par. It does happen. There are ways to deal with it.
1. This is 1SG business, pure and simple. It becomes officer business when it is time to execute on decision-making, but counseling, fixing, and if necessary dressing down a Senior NCO is NCO business. It is done in private and it is done professionally. The NCO in question didn't stop performing overnight, and if he did there is likely a reason why.
2. Breaking down someone in front of others is generally out of bounds. It should only be done if the infraction was public and even then only sparingly.
3. The family is off-limits. I can't imagine a scenario where this is even close to within bounds.
4. Talking about it like she's some kind of tough guy shows that there is a very real problem with her and her style. She wants to be in charge, but what she just did is divide the formation.
The correct course of action in this instance now that the horse is out of the barn is to get the NCO support channel engaged. No mention is made, but I am stunned that the First Sergeant let this go by and is tolerating this. I think the Sergeant Major needs to get involved.
Let's just say that the Captain was correct in her assessment that the SFC was not up to par. It does happen. There are ways to deal with it.
1. This is 1SG business, pure and simple. It becomes officer business when it is time to execute on decision-making, but counseling, fixing, and if necessary dressing down a Senior NCO is NCO business. It is done in private and it is done professionally. The NCO in question didn't stop performing overnight, and if he did there is likely a reason why.
2. Breaking down someone in front of others is generally out of bounds. It should only be done if the infraction was public and even then only sparingly.
3. The family is off-limits. I can't imagine a scenario where this is even close to within bounds.
4. Talking about it like she's some kind of tough guy shows that there is a very real problem with her and her style. She wants to be in charge, but what she just did is divide the formation.
The correct course of action in this instance now that the horse is out of the barn is to get the NCO support channel engaged. No mention is made, but I am stunned that the First Sergeant let this go by and is tolerating this. I think the Sergeant Major needs to get involved.
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1SG (Join to see)
Had a MAJ say once that there is no such thing as "NCO business", it is my business. Is this the "new breed" of officers?
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1SG (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties. They will not have to accomplish mine."
In a situation such as the Major you mentioned, disciplined initiative to solve issues at the appropriate and lowest level will keep the Major in his lane.
Once they become aware of an issue, a natural tendency of a leader is to get engaged, so he isn't wrong, either.
In a situation such as the Major you mentioned, disciplined initiative to solve issues at the appropriate and lowest level will keep the Major in his lane.
Once they become aware of an issue, a natural tendency of a leader is to get engaged, so he isn't wrong, either.
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"Praise in public, criticize in private." A good code to live by.
Chain of command first.
IG second.
Chain of command first.
IG second.
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Maj James Tippins
SFC Thomas Twigg - Agree with you, but if it had been done in private, both sides would have had a chance to retrace their steps if they had cooled off a bit.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Also Major most Management courses suggest exactly what You said, Praise in public criticize in private. Something I learned also from a Supervisor I had at Hanscom AFB, MA and saw how well it worked. He took care of things and there was never any question He was in charge but He had our respect and We wanted to do things to the best of our abilities. His management skills encouraged that. I made a good team. Though My own advancement in rank I always thought of Him and I think He had more positive influence on Me than any other human being I have ever met. He was the textbook perfect example of a great manager in My opinion !
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First, If that SR NCO was truly a POS, he or she would take it, not know how to defend against maltreatment and unbecoming act of an officer and move out like a POS should. BUT, most SR NCO's are smart enough to do the memorandum for record, get witnesses and report it to the chain of command, while in route to the IG's office. The reason I say report to both is because there are some officers that will close ranks, knowing that the Officer is wrong, and let you fall through the cracks. Date, time and circumstances surrounding a situation coupled with witness statements, in any situation, will correct these type behaviors.
But the true root of the problem is that that officer has not been properly mentored by a good 1SG, CSM, SGM or MSG. I have spent countless hours, AFTER DUTY HOURS, counseling commanders and Lieutenants, as a 1SG, to make them successful in dealing with substandard Sr and Jr NCO leaders but never accepted derogators words, Bully type leadership and foolishness from Officers to my NCO's and Soldiers nor to me!
Being the Backbone of an organization means being flexible but not breaking. Had that Sr NCO returned fire with words, the institutional foundation crumbles and Soldiers would see it. There is a time and place for every fight. Use the pen because the sword does not work in an officer to Sr NCO fight.
Additionally, every Thursday is a good chance to hold COMBATIVE PT, that shuts down a lot of mouths, legally!
But the true root of the problem is that that officer has not been properly mentored by a good 1SG, CSM, SGM or MSG. I have spent countless hours, AFTER DUTY HOURS, counseling commanders and Lieutenants, as a 1SG, to make them successful in dealing with substandard Sr and Jr NCO leaders but never accepted derogators words, Bully type leadership and foolishness from Officers to my NCO's and Soldiers nor to me!
Being the Backbone of an organization means being flexible but not breaking. Had that Sr NCO returned fire with words, the institutional foundation crumbles and Soldiers would see it. There is a time and place for every fight. Use the pen because the sword does not work in an officer to Sr NCO fight.
Additionally, every Thursday is a good chance to hold COMBATIVE PT, that shuts down a lot of mouths, legally!
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SFC (Join to see)
COL David Pelkey - With all due respect sir, you just proved the 1SG's point. There are many instances where Officers take their young Lt's or Cpt's under-wing to protect their future. Obviously that takes place on the NCO side of the house to. I personally have dealt with this behavior personally once and witnessed two other times during my 21 years of service. It happens all to often. IMO I thinks it's more about job security vs mission focus.
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SSG David Kaelin
COL David Pelkey - Yet, it does happen. It also happens with NCOs. This, I believe, is a human reaction. In the world of the Police, it is called the Thin Blue Line. In the Army, it has various names such as the Ring Knocker Association. Freemasons in the Army also cover for one another. I know this for a fact.
It happens also with Military folks who attend the same Church. I had a Soldier who called in a bomb threat as a joke on the CQ. This particular CQ was A Co of The Old Guard and was located right off of General's Row. They had to evac the ACS and the JCS. However, the soldier in question was "pew mates" with the last active duty Medal of Honor Winner who also happened to be a Major General.
MG Foley stepped down from on high and told COL Huntoon that this soldier should receive a LOR and that was it. As I understand it, Huntoon was fairly upset but a General had spoken. lol So let it be written, so let it be done.
While I was in the Army, I also witnessed Officers get screwed by Ring Knockers closing ranks, etc.
Don't mess with West Point.
It happens also with Military folks who attend the same Church. I had a Soldier who called in a bomb threat as a joke on the CQ. This particular CQ was A Co of The Old Guard and was located right off of General's Row. They had to evac the ACS and the JCS. However, the soldier in question was "pew mates" with the last active duty Medal of Honor Winner who also happened to be a Major General.
MG Foley stepped down from on high and told COL Huntoon that this soldier should receive a LOR and that was it. As I understand it, Huntoon was fairly upset but a General had spoken. lol So let it be written, so let it be done.
While I was in the Army, I also witnessed Officers get screwed by Ring Knockers closing ranks, etc.
Don't mess with West Point.
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Maj James Tippins
1SG (Join to see) - "And The name is Smith, 0-4 Anonymous!"
The post is coming out with "1SG (Anonymous)" as your name. I have no idea why this is happening; everywhere else my name comes out. Something is definitely foobar here.
The post is coming out with "1SG (Anonymous)" as your name. I have no idea why this is happening; everywhere else my name comes out. Something is definitely foobar here.
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This sounds like a solid IG complaint, but we are picking up the story at the point where she starts ripping a$$. The previous 5 minutes need to be brought to light, as does the previous relationship. That does not excuse the behavior, but it sets the background. I have lost my s#!+ on a Soldier once. It was behind closed doors in UCMJ and is the only time I cursed AT someone while in command. He filed an IG complaint, which was within his rights and the IG told me that it was bad that I lost my bearing with him. Noted. The guy was an adulterer and a drug user. He was lying to me at the time and lied continually during his UCMJ hearing. I lost it. I'm a bad man. Boo-frickity-hoo. Now...this situation is a little different...it was in public and in a different situation, but like I said, we are missing the back story. IG will have a solid complaint for this, especially if there were attacks made against the Soldier's family members.
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SSG Ray Petersen
Sir, I do agree with what you said at the end. My father is a retired 1SG and said when he was in there were four things you didn't mess with. Rank, Pay (both were left alone unless UCMJ) Religion and Family.
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1SG (Join to see)
There is a time and place to lose your ever-loving mind at a Soldier and give them what for. Most of the time, it is best if the NCO channel handles this part, so that even if the commander is pissed, they can retain impartiality when the decision on what to do regarding UCMJ is made.
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SGM Erik Marquez
COL (Join to see) "but we are picking up the story at the point where she starts ripping a$$. The previous 5 minutes need to be brought to light, as does the previous relationship. That does not excuse the behavior, but it sets the background"
Absolutely and as MAJ Carl Ballinger also stated.. knowing the why is vitally important.
I was asked to review an NCOER once, it was scathing in its assessment. The senior rater was at odds with his perception of the NCO vs the rater.
I took a few weeks and spent time being in the same workspace as the rater and NCO. I overheard many derogatory comments to the NCO and to fellow officers and subordinates about that rated NCO.
Among some of the most troublesome NCOER notations were the NO block for Honor and Integrity.
More so because I found out the source of the displeasure that Captain had that led to the public and written chastising. He had cut off an improper relationship when the female captain. BOTH were married, the he was legally separated and divorced all but completed, just waiting out a statutory required "cooling off at the time (still against regulations but at least morally not as repugnate)
So this married Captain , still living with her spouse was scorned by her fellow adulterer and took it upon herself to take it out on him publicly and professionally. THAT was the backstory to a bad NCOER.. as in fraudulently bad not just difference of opinion bad
Absolutely and as MAJ Carl Ballinger also stated.. knowing the why is vitally important.
I was asked to review an NCOER once, it was scathing in its assessment. The senior rater was at odds with his perception of the NCO vs the rater.
I took a few weeks and spent time being in the same workspace as the rater and NCO. I overheard many derogatory comments to the NCO and to fellow officers and subordinates about that rated NCO.
Among some of the most troublesome NCOER notations were the NO block for Honor and Integrity.
More so because I found out the source of the displeasure that Captain had that led to the public and written chastising. He had cut off an improper relationship when the female captain. BOTH were married, the he was legally separated and divorced all but completed, just waiting out a statutory required "cooling off at the time (still against regulations but at least morally not as repugnate)
So this married Captain , still living with her spouse was scorned by her fellow adulterer and took it upon herself to take it out on him publicly and professionally. THAT was the backstory to a bad NCOER.. as in fraudulently bad not just difference of opinion bad
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CW4 Tim Claus
SGM Erik Marquez - I have written some devastating NCOERs and OERs, but for them to be effective, they must be factual, impartial and with the goal of correcting performance for the betterment of the mission. The eval received, good or bad, must be proportional to the performance being recorded.
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Captain is allowed to make a professional opinion about the SFC.
Captain is NOT allowed to make ANY opinion about SFC's family. Escalate "informally." First to his CoC (preferably to someone high enough to light a fire at the Captain's level) then in the Captain's CoC. If they are the same, more the better.
If that does not resolve the issue, make a "formal" complaint (like through the IG).
Regardless of what transpired between the Captain and the SFC (or who was right or wrong), it shouldn't be repeated by the Captain in public. The matter ended, and this just adds more fuel to the flame.
CC SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
Captain is NOT allowed to make ANY opinion about SFC's family. Escalate "informally." First to his CoC (preferably to someone high enough to light a fire at the Captain's level) then in the Captain's CoC. If they are the same, more the better.
If that does not resolve the issue, make a "formal" complaint (like through the IG).
Regardless of what transpired between the Captain and the SFC (or who was right or wrong), it shouldn't be repeated by the Captain in public. The matter ended, and this just adds more fuel to the flame.
CC SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
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1SG Patrick McKelvey
LTC Paul Labrador - LTC attention to detail is paramount here Sir, calling another soldier a PoS "one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC" , "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members." is not "scolding" it's showing your ass in an unprofessional escalation of out of control temper in a public environment. On that note as well, "scolding" is not what professionals do, we make On the Spot Corrections or counseling verbal or written. While I concur that there is of course more to the story given the facts at hand she acted unprofessionally, used her position for the purposes of personally attacking a soldier in a public environment and regardless of his performance of a task or mission stacking family members is NEVER acceptable behavior. Then walking around braqging ie. "CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"... " is again counter productive to good order and discipline by undermining the subordinate CoC. BLUF she is forever glad that I was not the 1SG there as I indeed would have gotten some of THAT ass with my CO IMMEDIATELY for acting in a manner destructive to unit performance then gloating to further her performance. And I wager you Sir, my entire yearly salary, this is NOT the first time the CPT in question has acted in this manner, and continues to do so due to FEAR, NEGLIGENCE or IGNORANCE of the SM actions by her chain of command. Just my opinion but if its not OK up the chain in my house it sure as hell is not OK DOWN the chain, oh wait that's not my opinion its Army Regulation (and effective, but hey lets not drag enhancing unit performance and mission accomplishment into this exchange) ask more than one Officer or NCO if I ruthlessly enforced that if you like....pretty sure I read this stuff in a book somewhere...
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COL David Pelkey
1SG Patrick McKelvey - What one person calls counseling another calls scolding. You stated yourself more information is needed (including what's true and what's exaggerated), but you're taking a lot of it on faith and interpretation. Making a lot of assumptions on the details, many of which are opinions, not facts.
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SFC Charles Miller
Calling an NCO a POS is not counseling! Bringing their family into any negative conversation is also not professional! I don't care WHO you are! Family is off limits where counseling or opinions are concerned!
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CW4 Tim Claus
COL David Pelkey - Counseling is only effective when it is calm, impartial and factually based. Even then, it doesn't always take the first time, hence the need for documentation. Once the senior individual resorts to profanity, excess volume or loses their composure, the counseling is completely ineffective.
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Do not engage until you have made a legible memorandum of your best recollection of the situation, w/ multiple copies! When you can recite the situation off the top of your head, go forward!
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It is immaturity on the part of the officer. You can absolutely slam someone without cussing or getting personal. It is as simple as telling them they are ineffective and what standard they are not meeting, but you have to have the counselings as you attempt to bring them to standard. You cannot yell at someone and trash talk their family.
In this case take it to the chain of command. This officer may need to be ushered out of the Army and one referred OER or GOMAR for toxic leadership will do the trick. This isn't a UCMJ issue, but the chain has every tool needed. I would only go to IG if the chain appears unwilling to act, but if there are witnesses there should be an investigation and fire up the toaster.
In this case take it to the chain of command. This officer may need to be ushered out of the Army and one referred OER or GOMAR for toxic leadership will do the trick. This isn't a UCMJ issue, but the chain has every tool needed. I would only go to IG if the chain appears unwilling to act, but if there are witnesses there should be an investigation and fire up the toaster.
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1SG (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - It is a good thing and expected, handling things from the bottom up but when somebody is willing and at a moments notice curses and rants and embarrasses a Sr Leader, the NCOER is usually the next jab that that unprofessional leader takes and then you have a professional document with personal feelings on it. SO, who's career are we going to save at that point? And doing a CDR's inquiry does not stop that report from getting into the Soldiers records. One sub par NCOER and you are done! Cutting the head off the snake is important. There is no room for mistakes between professionals
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SGM Robin Johnson
MAJ (Join to see) - It has been a few days so I wasn't going to chime in, but I see you are still serving, so I want to offer some mentorship. I served as the EO SGM for an Army DRU for my last 3 years and some change in the Army. I was TDY about half the year at our units around the globe, and my LTG and CSM asked me to spend a lot of time with the young command teams to teach, coach and mentor because that was where we could make a difference. And seeing the number of LTCs, COLs, 1SGs, SGMs, and CSMs that needed to be relieved or removed from their positions I knew why. You seem very concerned that the Captain should just be given an opportunity to learn. Well, what exactly was her time as a 2LT and 1LT? If she didn't learn then the proper way to treat subordinates (which she obviously did not) why shouldn't she get harsher treatment now? If you had an NCO standing in front of you giving you a Private's excuse, would you accept it? And if she is treating a SNCO like this in public, how do you think she is treating a junior enlisted Soldier, who has less power and influence, in private? Rather than be concerned for HER career, how about being concerned for the careers and lives of her Soldiers?
Because at the end of the day, the chain of command IS the Army to those Soldiers. At work they have to suck it up, and when they see nothing happen in cases like this they figure no one in the chain of command cares how their Soldiers are treated. Then they go home and say "I hate the Army" when they really mean they hate that Captain, or YOU if they are your Soldiers. And when good Soldiers fail to reenlist it is often because bad leaders lost valuable talent and wasted Army training dollars. So please consider that rather than looking at the cost of a punishment to the person accused of a violation of the standards, you look at the cost to the victim of that violation, and at the cost to the unit of not taking appropriate corrective action, and the cost to the Army down the line if that violation is allowed to continue unchecked.
She either knew better or should have, and failed to meet the standard in a major and public way. If the facts are as stated, the fact that she attacked him personally is bad enough, but to bring his family into it shows that she has serious leadership flaws that have gone past the 'gentle correction' stage. If the next thing she did landed her in a front-page story of the Army Times and they recounted this story and said that your punishment for her actions was...telling her not to do it again...would you cringe? Believe me, the first time you are explaining your COA on an incident to CSA, you learn to appreciate having thought through your response from every person's perspective.
Because at the end of the day, the chain of command IS the Army to those Soldiers. At work they have to suck it up, and when they see nothing happen in cases like this they figure no one in the chain of command cares how their Soldiers are treated. Then they go home and say "I hate the Army" when they really mean they hate that Captain, or YOU if they are your Soldiers. And when good Soldiers fail to reenlist it is often because bad leaders lost valuable talent and wasted Army training dollars. So please consider that rather than looking at the cost of a punishment to the person accused of a violation of the standards, you look at the cost to the victim of that violation, and at the cost to the unit of not taking appropriate corrective action, and the cost to the Army down the line if that violation is allowed to continue unchecked.
She either knew better or should have, and failed to meet the standard in a major and public way. If the facts are as stated, the fact that she attacked him personally is bad enough, but to bring his family into it shows that she has serious leadership flaws that have gone past the 'gentle correction' stage. If the next thing she did landed her in a front-page story of the Army Times and they recounted this story and said that your punishment for her actions was...telling her not to do it again...would you cringe? Believe me, the first time you are explaining your COA on an incident to CSA, you learn to appreciate having thought through your response from every person's perspective.
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I would start with whoever the CPT reports to. Same as I would want one of my privates to go to the 1SG, if they felt that I would not handle their situation appropriately.
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SFC (Join to see)
Do you have reason to believe that person would not correct the situation? I am not sure of your organization, but I would go as high as I could in the chain of command before involving IG. Of course, I would work my way up and not jump to the top.
Has the SFC tried speaking privately with the CPT and see if it could be worked out at the lowest level? This would have been my first step.
Has the SFC tried speaking privately with the CPT and see if it could be worked out at the lowest level? This would have been my first step.
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SFC (Join to see)
The soldier is an SFC, so I would accept his judgement on that. IG is a possible alternative, I have just seen this route create more problems than it solves occasionally. However, sometimes it is the action needed to handle toxic leadership.
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CCMSgt (Join to see)
The SFC is a Senior NCO. It's a tough job, but earning that rocker means he has to give the Chain of Command the benefit of the doubt that they will do their job...
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What you describe is unacceptable. It's toxic leadership at it's finest and it is a systemic problem. As has been said many times, chain of command then IG. Demand accountability for this incident and the retaliation that will almost certainly follow her being held accountable.
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Sgt Michael Betts
I also concur. Even if the vituperation heaped upon the unfortunate NCO was deserved, not only is his family "out-of-bounds" but discussing the dressing down with ANYONE else is seriously unprofessional. In the Corps, we have "request mast" to bring concerns to senior officers and in this case, having a discussion with the battalion commander would be entirely appropriate. It would be up to the battalion CO (not any NCO) to then discuss the matter with the offending captain.
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I would break this down into a few different issues rather than respond to the whole thing in one shot, as I see three different behaviors here that could be of concern.
First off, cursing / loss of bearing. Most officers at one point in their careers have encountered situations where they have lost their bearings. Sometimes it's deserved, even if it's not the most effective means of correcting someone. I used language like that one time to an E6...after he was caught doing drugs in the barracks with his subordinate troops. I don't regret it. I believe GEN Mattis once lamented on the use of cursing to get troops attention and put added emphasis on a statement. I don't have an issue with cursing in general, but it's like many other things, in moderation it's okay, but not in excess. That type of cursing in a dress-down in front of an audience is bad judgement regardless.
Second behavior...degrading the NCO. There's a difference between cursing while correcting someone, and what is presented here. This was not a correction but a tear-down. There are exceptions to the rule, but 99% of the time this is toxic to the unit and shouldn't be tolerated. If the recipient of the tear-down did something that was so absolutely egregious (rape, dealing drugs to troops, other serious felonies, etc) to where he's on the short-track out of the service, then maybe I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it, but it should have been behind closed doors, and done by the CDR. If this wasn't the case here, and I don't get the feeling it was, then it was absolutely uncalled for and accomplished nothing.
Third behavior...the CPT smirking and telling others she ripped the guy after the fact...and doing so in earshot of others....uncalled for and unprofessional, regardless of the backstory.
So, long story short, there's enough of concern here regardless of the history that I'd recommend doing something with it. I'd recommend bringing it up to the CSM if you're enlisted. CSM will most likely bring in the Bn CDR. The Bn CDR will have a more complete picture of the CPT and is in the best position to determine if the Army is best served by correcting / mentoring the CPT, or if the situation merits a 15-6 investigation with potentially more severe repercussions.
First off, cursing / loss of bearing. Most officers at one point in their careers have encountered situations where they have lost their bearings. Sometimes it's deserved, even if it's not the most effective means of correcting someone. I used language like that one time to an E6...after he was caught doing drugs in the barracks with his subordinate troops. I don't regret it. I believe GEN Mattis once lamented on the use of cursing to get troops attention and put added emphasis on a statement. I don't have an issue with cursing in general, but it's like many other things, in moderation it's okay, but not in excess. That type of cursing in a dress-down in front of an audience is bad judgement regardless.
Second behavior...degrading the NCO. There's a difference between cursing while correcting someone, and what is presented here. This was not a correction but a tear-down. There are exceptions to the rule, but 99% of the time this is toxic to the unit and shouldn't be tolerated. If the recipient of the tear-down did something that was so absolutely egregious (rape, dealing drugs to troops, other serious felonies, etc) to where he's on the short-track out of the service, then maybe I wouldn't make a huge deal out of it, but it should have been behind closed doors, and done by the CDR. If this wasn't the case here, and I don't get the feeling it was, then it was absolutely uncalled for and accomplished nothing.
Third behavior...the CPT smirking and telling others she ripped the guy after the fact...and doing so in earshot of others....uncalled for and unprofessional, regardless of the backstory.
So, long story short, there's enough of concern here regardless of the history that I'd recommend doing something with it. I'd recommend bringing it up to the CSM if you're enlisted. CSM will most likely bring in the Bn CDR. The Bn CDR will have a more complete picture of the CPT and is in the best position to determine if the Army is best served by correcting / mentoring the CPT, or if the situation merits a 15-6 investigation with potentially more severe repercussions.
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MSG Franklin Mclelland
You kind of left out the family part. I am infantry of 26 1/2yrs. Had I been in this E7s shoes, she would have been knocked out for verbally attacking my family. Attack me, fine; attack my family and someone is going to the hospital.
They're is a lot left to the imagination here, like the back story and what type unit this is. Also, any NCOs or other officers standing by should have stepped in. What she did warranted it.
They're is a lot left to the imagination here, like the back story and what type unit this is. Also, any NCOs or other officers standing by should have stepped in. What she did warranted it.
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If I were that CPTs supervisor, would pull that officer aside and give her the run down on how officers under my command are expected to act. She would be in my office, standing in front of my desk at the position of attention. I'd tell her that her conduct is well be low my expectations of an officer of her rank and that her decorum is severely lacking. I'd go on to say that if she didn't like what I was saying then she could take her objections up the chain of command and that I'd be happy to provide the next commander in the chain a letter explaining the situation. As a matter of fact, I'd offer her the opportunity to call my commander and that I'd be happy to dial the phone for her. Finally, I'd provide her the opportunity to excel by having her come to my officer for a couple of Saturdays so that I could properly train her in professional courtesy and bearing.
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That behavior, right there, needs an immediate correction. "Ma'am, will you please join me in the hall?" Followed by "Ma'am, would you please accompany me to discuss this with the commander?" Followed by "Ma'am, if you choose not to accompany me...I'll ask the Chief Master Sergeant/Master CPO/Sgt Maj/First Sgt to find you. If you still won't accompany us voluntarily, then we will have the discussion without you present."
The conversation in the room is to discuss the history and the job of a SNCO. I was a similar situation and had a frank/respectful discussion the commander the situation and at the same time held myself accountable while holding the commander responsible for his officers. "Sir, I understand my rank and what is expected of me...have I failed in that? If I have, then maybe we need to discuss future role changes or remedial training. If not, then it is NOT possible for me to lead my soldier/sailors/airmen/marines, when this is how the O-3 belittles me publicly. This is not the first time it has happened and it appears to be a personality conflict. If so, I'd like to fix this now. This destroys the trust and bond that I have formed with my men and women. It will be impossible for me to carry out my duties. In addition, this is an officer. She is an example to the junior enlisted. If she mistreats her SNCO's publicly, then the NCOs and junior enlisted will think that behavior is tolerated or encouraged. She sets the example, and she is not performing as an officer and a lady."
An O-3 is an officer and the rank must be respected. But there is a delicate balance there for that O-3. If she insults the SFC publicly, the effect is pretty poisonous to an organization. Both, the SFC and the CPT, will pay for this. Some will take sides and unit cohesion suffers. The Colonel/CAPT will be very interested on making sure that this doesn't happen.
Expect and apology from that Captain.
The conversation in the room is to discuss the history and the job of a SNCO. I was a similar situation and had a frank/respectful discussion the commander the situation and at the same time held myself accountable while holding the commander responsible for his officers. "Sir, I understand my rank and what is expected of me...have I failed in that? If I have, then maybe we need to discuss future role changes or remedial training. If not, then it is NOT possible for me to lead my soldier/sailors/airmen/marines, when this is how the O-3 belittles me publicly. This is not the first time it has happened and it appears to be a personality conflict. If so, I'd like to fix this now. This destroys the trust and bond that I have formed with my men and women. It will be impossible for me to carry out my duties. In addition, this is an officer. She is an example to the junior enlisted. If she mistreats her SNCO's publicly, then the NCOs and junior enlisted will think that behavior is tolerated or encouraged. She sets the example, and she is not performing as an officer and a lady."
An O-3 is an officer and the rank must be respected. But there is a delicate balance there for that O-3. If she insults the SFC publicly, the effect is pretty poisonous to an organization. Both, the SFC and the CPT, will pay for this. Some will take sides and unit cohesion suffers. The Colonel/CAPT will be very interested on making sure that this doesn't happen.
Expect and apology from that Captain.
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The SFC should go to his First Sergeant, who should in turn take the matter up with the Battalion Sergeant Major. Let the Sergeant Major bring to the battalion commander's attention the conduct of one of his officers. If everyone is doing their, jobs this will be your best remedy. If people start putting their careers over the care of their soldiers, in the long run everyone is going to suffer.
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1SG Patrick Sims
TIM---Going to the Brigade CO could be a problem----If the Battalion Sergeant Major is a weak sister and won't do anything, going over his head to Brigade could cause the entire company problems---He could resent Brigade telling him to do his job, and take it out on the entire company to get at the 1st Sergeant. I went through this bullshit with a Battalion Sergeant Major who was a career man, and a Division Sergeant Major who had more stories than Doctor Souse.
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If you look at the typical IG charters, personal conduct isn't in their swim lane. Besides the IG has no line authority. If they get the complaint, they shove it over to the CoC. Problem is it gets shoved over to the front office hence bypassing much of the CoC. Nothing like having the front office ding downwards on this stuff catching some good NCOs and JOs off guard who might have been your best advocate. A good SEL should make sure all the ENLs understand the complaint redress process and what goes into what puka. You don't want to become the problem by working the system sideways. BTW, thinking back on things, 2/3rds or more of the officer/NCO job firings I did were over personal conduct, i.e. they treated people like crap. Great morale booster overall when you trim the bad apples.
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1SG (Join to see)
The UCMJ covers Maltreatment of a Soldier and that is part of the duty of the Office of the Inspector General, to ensure that Soldiers are treated fairly and with dignity and respect (I, as a Drill Sergeant, was on the receiving end of that conversation, for raising hell with a permanent party Marine that was engaged in a relationship with a trainee). Article 93 is tough to get around and after they investigate the allegation, they pass their findings down to the COC with recommendation, while simultaneously passing it UP the chain of command for review. I have road that horse. It was found that my actions warranted the response that I gave. It was after the Sex scandal at APG!
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CCMSgt (Join to see)
"Nature of act. The cruelty, oppression, or maltreatment, although not necessarily physical, must be measured by an objective standard. Assault, improper punishment, and sexual harassment may constitute this offense. Sexual harassment includes influencing, offering to influence, or threatening the career, pay, or job of another person in exchange for sexual favors, and deliberate or repeated offensive comments or gestures of a sexual nature. The imposition of necessary or proper duties and the exaction of their performance does not constitute this offense even though the duties are arduous or hazardous or both."
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CW4 Tim Claus
1SG (Join to see) - Lack of direct authority is the primary problem here. The IG can fact find, but they still need to forward the details to the CoC for legal authority for action.
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I am truly amazed by some of these comments that are being posted by STAFF SERGEANT's and above. NCO's begin their comments with, I don't know what regulation covers this and that, or not sure if the CPT's actions are justified.. I don't care who you are nor do I care what Rank you are, you do not have the right to disrespect Soldiers or NCO's for that matter. And the SSG that initiated this post, why are you posting this when you should be reporting this???
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SFC (Join to see)
the system is broke, but the senior needs to discuss the situation with another senior if he/she don't trust chain of command and let another senior help. Bottom line, NCO's needs to take care other NCO's.. And this should never take place..
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MSgt Michael Gaddis
SFC Smith...you didn't read the entire post. The SSG who posted this is site admin. He posted it for the originating poster as the originating poster didn't wanted to remain anonymous.
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Okay, while everyone tries to come up with "appropriate" ways to handle this I'll relate a sort of kind of similar experience and how it was handled. A LTjg (O-2) said to a PO1 at quarters before the CO and XO showed up "Did you roll in the mud this morning? You are a disgrace. How did you make 1st class?" The first class popped to attention and yelled out (think of boot camp) "SIR ! I have no clue how I made 1st class petty officer being the disgraceful piece of sh*t I am that got dragged up here while working on a piece of equipment that has to work or we don't go to sea and the captain would be in hot water for missing an assigned deployment. SIR!"
Yeh. LTjg didn't say much after that.
Yeh. LTjg didn't say much after that.
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I would definitely go directly to my chain of command right after I render a proper salute and exit stage left. My 1SG will be informed, and then on. It's one thing to give me a well deserved a** chewing behind closed doors. But once you cross that line of professionalism, and use profane language towards me, you are being out right disrespectful, regardless of what rank either of us is wearing. And then to even think about mentioning my family.....when a "leader" uses their personal feelings towards a fellow Soldier, they are no longer, at least in my opinion, a leader.
So, if going to the COC does nothing, then my next step is IG.
So, if going to the COC does nothing, then my next step is IG.
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First and foremost, I tip my hat to this NCO for maintaining his composure and bearing. A sign of a true professional. I, personally, would first address this situation with my 1SG and BN CSM. I have yet to meet a CSM that would just let something like this slide. I would almost guarantee this CPT would have an appointment with the BN Commander very shortly after.
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1SG (Join to see)
If the CSM is on his game, he'd pay this Captain a visit and ask about what he'd "heard rumors of". If the CPT is what we think she is with the story as presented, she will continue to spout off to the Sergeant Major.
Big mistake.
Big mistake.
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This is typical of someone who has been promoted beyond their professional ability, it seems to me it is all about power and a "what are you going to do about it" attitude. The best type leaders are actually servants to their troops (doing their best to uplift them, and motivate with wisdom). It is most unfortunate when vindictiveness is elevated beyond the general welfare of the troops, but not uncommon nowadays. It is not uncommon in my experience that many junior grade officers feel they need to "prove something" about who they are (so to speak) by tearing down another within the "pecking order" of the garrison. Yet this could be quite deadly when one's life depends on upon unit cohesion within the company say while in harms way.
I have also seen NCO's have officers reprimanded for "unbecoming behavior from an officer", but it must be done precariously and precisely via proper channels.
I was once asked to testify by my direct officer, about the behavior of another officer in my unit, but was advised not to do so by my first sergeant - because of repercussions on me under the UCMJ.
I have also seen NCO's have officers reprimanded for "unbecoming behavior from an officer", but it must be done precariously and precisely via proper channels.
I was once asked to testify by my direct officer, about the behavior of another officer in my unit, but was advised not to do so by my first sergeant - because of repercussions on me under the UCMJ.
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