Posted on Mar 15, 2016
Should I report unprofessional behavior through the Chain of Command or an IG complaint?
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NOTE: Member wished to be disassociated from this subject so it has been reposted here with the original comments.
Thank you,
-RP Staff
Recently was involved in an one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC. Since this is to get get a general consensus of what should be done, I would like to leave out names and places out but can include that the CPT's comments towards the SFC included: "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members.
Considering that if this was a lower to an NCO doing this, the Soldier would be crucified. If this was an NCO to an officer?, someone would be out of a job.
I heard one day that the moment you lose your bearing you lost the argument. So the SFC did the right thing by keeping professionally quiet and bringing up to the supervisor. Situation is now: such CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"...
What would be some appropriate ways to handle this situation?
Thank you,
-RP Staff
Recently was involved in an one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC. Since this is to get get a general consensus of what should be done, I would like to leave out names and places out but can include that the CPT's comments towards the SFC included: "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members.
Considering that if this was a lower to an NCO doing this, the Soldier would be crucified. If this was an NCO to an officer?, someone would be out of a job.
I heard one day that the moment you lose your bearing you lost the argument. So the SFC did the right thing by keeping professionally quiet and bringing up to the supervisor. Situation is now: such CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"...
What would be some appropriate ways to handle this situation?
Chain of Command
JAG
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 258
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I would always try Chain of Command first. SFC needs to document the incident and bring it up his own chain, with a request to meet with CPT's chain in order to settle this professionally. SFC must admit up front any wrongdoing or culpability in the situation. This does two things: Shows his own professionalism/sense of accountability, and gives his story credibility. SFC needs his SGM or commander along for the meeting with CPT's CoC, but it will get settled there. And due to the unprofessional and ugly family comments by CPT, it will not go well for her once the meeting breaks. I would save IG for when the CoC fails.
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SFC (Join to see)
If I had been the SFC, I would have taken the officer into a more private space and told her what was what. Like: "If you ever speak to or about me that way in front of my soldiers/peers/family, so help me God, you and I will be going to see the Old Man. If you have an issue with me, tell me, not everyone else. Do you understand me Captain?"
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Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.
Let's just say that the Captain was correct in her assessment that the SFC was not up to par. It does happen. There are ways to deal with it.
1. This is 1SG business, pure and simple. It becomes officer business when it is time to execute on decision-making, but counseling, fixing, and if necessary dressing down a Senior NCO is NCO business. It is done in private and it is done professionally. The NCO in question didn't stop performing overnight, and if he did there is likely a reason why.
2. Breaking down someone in front of others is generally out of bounds. It should only be done if the infraction was public and even then only sparingly.
3. The family is off-limits. I can't imagine a scenario where this is even close to within bounds.
4. Talking about it like she's some kind of tough guy shows that there is a very real problem with her and her style. She wants to be in charge, but what she just did is divide the formation.
The correct course of action in this instance now that the horse is out of the barn is to get the NCO support channel engaged. No mention is made, but I am stunned that the First Sergeant let this go by and is tolerating this. I think the Sergeant Major needs to get involved.
Let's just say that the Captain was correct in her assessment that the SFC was not up to par. It does happen. There are ways to deal with it.
1. This is 1SG business, pure and simple. It becomes officer business when it is time to execute on decision-making, but counseling, fixing, and if necessary dressing down a Senior NCO is NCO business. It is done in private and it is done professionally. The NCO in question didn't stop performing overnight, and if he did there is likely a reason why.
2. Breaking down someone in front of others is generally out of bounds. It should only be done if the infraction was public and even then only sparingly.
3. The family is off-limits. I can't imagine a scenario where this is even close to within bounds.
4. Talking about it like she's some kind of tough guy shows that there is a very real problem with her and her style. She wants to be in charge, but what she just did is divide the formation.
The correct course of action in this instance now that the horse is out of the barn is to get the NCO support channel engaged. No mention is made, but I am stunned that the First Sergeant let this go by and is tolerating this. I think the Sergeant Major needs to get involved.
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1SG (Join to see)
Had a MAJ say once that there is no such thing as "NCO business", it is my business. Is this the "new breed" of officers?
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1SG (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties. They will not have to accomplish mine."
In a situation such as the Major you mentioned, disciplined initiative to solve issues at the appropriate and lowest level will keep the Major in his lane.
Once they become aware of an issue, a natural tendency of a leader is to get engaged, so he isn't wrong, either.
In a situation such as the Major you mentioned, disciplined initiative to solve issues at the appropriate and lowest level will keep the Major in his lane.
Once they become aware of an issue, a natural tendency of a leader is to get engaged, so he isn't wrong, either.
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"Praise in public, criticize in private." A good code to live by.
Chain of command first.
IG second.
Chain of command first.
IG second.
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Maj James Tippins
SFC Thomas Twigg - Agree with you, but if it had been done in private, both sides would have had a chance to retrace their steps if they had cooled off a bit.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
Also Major most Management courses suggest exactly what You said, Praise in public criticize in private. Something I learned also from a Supervisor I had at Hanscom AFB, MA and saw how well it worked. He took care of things and there was never any question He was in charge but He had our respect and We wanted to do things to the best of our abilities. His management skills encouraged that. I made a good team. Though My own advancement in rank I always thought of Him and I think He had more positive influence on Me than any other human being I have ever met. He was the textbook perfect example of a great manager in My opinion !
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First, If that SR NCO was truly a POS, he or she would take it, not know how to defend against maltreatment and unbecoming act of an officer and move out like a POS should. BUT, most SR NCO's are smart enough to do the memorandum for record, get witnesses and report it to the chain of command, while in route to the IG's office. The reason I say report to both is because there are some officers that will close ranks, knowing that the Officer is wrong, and let you fall through the cracks. Date, time and circumstances surrounding a situation coupled with witness statements, in any situation, will correct these type behaviors.
But the true root of the problem is that that officer has not been properly mentored by a good 1SG, CSM, SGM or MSG. I have spent countless hours, AFTER DUTY HOURS, counseling commanders and Lieutenants, as a 1SG, to make them successful in dealing with substandard Sr and Jr NCO leaders but never accepted derogators words, Bully type leadership and foolishness from Officers to my NCO's and Soldiers nor to me!
Being the Backbone of an organization means being flexible but not breaking. Had that Sr NCO returned fire with words, the institutional foundation crumbles and Soldiers would see it. There is a time and place for every fight. Use the pen because the sword does not work in an officer to Sr NCO fight.
Additionally, every Thursday is a good chance to hold COMBATIVE PT, that shuts down a lot of mouths, legally!
But the true root of the problem is that that officer has not been properly mentored by a good 1SG, CSM, SGM or MSG. I have spent countless hours, AFTER DUTY HOURS, counseling commanders and Lieutenants, as a 1SG, to make them successful in dealing with substandard Sr and Jr NCO leaders but never accepted derogators words, Bully type leadership and foolishness from Officers to my NCO's and Soldiers nor to me!
Being the Backbone of an organization means being flexible but not breaking. Had that Sr NCO returned fire with words, the institutional foundation crumbles and Soldiers would see it. There is a time and place for every fight. Use the pen because the sword does not work in an officer to Sr NCO fight.
Additionally, every Thursday is a good chance to hold COMBATIVE PT, that shuts down a lot of mouths, legally!
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SFC (Join to see)
COL David Pelkey - With all due respect sir, you just proved the 1SG's point. There are many instances where Officers take their young Lt's or Cpt's under-wing to protect their future. Obviously that takes place on the NCO side of the house to. I personally have dealt with this behavior personally once and witnessed two other times during my 21 years of service. It happens all to often. IMO I thinks it's more about job security vs mission focus.
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SSG David Kaelin
COL David Pelkey - Yet, it does happen. It also happens with NCOs. This, I believe, is a human reaction. In the world of the Police, it is called the Thin Blue Line. In the Army, it has various names such as the Ring Knocker Association. Freemasons in the Army also cover for one another. I know this for a fact.
It happens also with Military folks who attend the same Church. I had a Soldier who called in a bomb threat as a joke on the CQ. This particular CQ was A Co of The Old Guard and was located right off of General's Row. They had to evac the ACS and the JCS. However, the soldier in question was "pew mates" with the last active duty Medal of Honor Winner who also happened to be a Major General.
MG Foley stepped down from on high and told COL Huntoon that this soldier should receive a LOR and that was it. As I understand it, Huntoon was fairly upset but a General had spoken. lol So let it be written, so let it be done.
While I was in the Army, I also witnessed Officers get screwed by Ring Knockers closing ranks, etc.
Don't mess with West Point.
It happens also with Military folks who attend the same Church. I had a Soldier who called in a bomb threat as a joke on the CQ. This particular CQ was A Co of The Old Guard and was located right off of General's Row. They had to evac the ACS and the JCS. However, the soldier in question was "pew mates" with the last active duty Medal of Honor Winner who also happened to be a Major General.
MG Foley stepped down from on high and told COL Huntoon that this soldier should receive a LOR and that was it. As I understand it, Huntoon was fairly upset but a General had spoken. lol So let it be written, so let it be done.
While I was in the Army, I also witnessed Officers get screwed by Ring Knockers closing ranks, etc.
Don't mess with West Point.
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Maj James Tippins
1SG (Join to see) - "And The name is Smith, 0-4 Anonymous!"
The post is coming out with "1SG (Anonymous)" as your name. I have no idea why this is happening; everywhere else my name comes out. Something is definitely foobar here.
The post is coming out with "1SG (Anonymous)" as your name. I have no idea why this is happening; everywhere else my name comes out. Something is definitely foobar here.
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This sounds like a solid IG complaint, but we are picking up the story at the point where she starts ripping a$$. The previous 5 minutes need to be brought to light, as does the previous relationship. That does not excuse the behavior, but it sets the background. I have lost my s#!+ on a Soldier once. It was behind closed doors in UCMJ and is the only time I cursed AT someone while in command. He filed an IG complaint, which was within his rights and the IG told me that it was bad that I lost my bearing with him. Noted. The guy was an adulterer and a drug user. He was lying to me at the time and lied continually during his UCMJ hearing. I lost it. I'm a bad man. Boo-frickity-hoo. Now...this situation is a little different...it was in public and in a different situation, but like I said, we are missing the back story. IG will have a solid complaint for this, especially if there were attacks made against the Soldier's family members.
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SSG Ray Petersen
Sir, I do agree with what you said at the end. My father is a retired 1SG and said when he was in there were four things you didn't mess with. Rank, Pay (both were left alone unless UCMJ) Religion and Family.
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1SG (Join to see)
There is a time and place to lose your ever-loving mind at a Soldier and give them what for. Most of the time, it is best if the NCO channel handles this part, so that even if the commander is pissed, they can retain impartiality when the decision on what to do regarding UCMJ is made.
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SGM Erik Marquez
COL (Join to see) "but we are picking up the story at the point where she starts ripping a$$. The previous 5 minutes need to be brought to light, as does the previous relationship. That does not excuse the behavior, but it sets the background"
Absolutely and as MAJ Carl Ballinger also stated.. knowing the why is vitally important.
I was asked to review an NCOER once, it was scathing in its assessment. The senior rater was at odds with his perception of the NCO vs the rater.
I took a few weeks and spent time being in the same workspace as the rater and NCO. I overheard many derogatory comments to the NCO and to fellow officers and subordinates about that rated NCO.
Among some of the most troublesome NCOER notations were the NO block for Honor and Integrity.
More so because I found out the source of the displeasure that Captain had that led to the public and written chastising. He had cut off an improper relationship when the female captain. BOTH were married, the he was legally separated and divorced all but completed, just waiting out a statutory required "cooling off at the time (still against regulations but at least morally not as repugnate)
So this married Captain , still living with her spouse was scorned by her fellow adulterer and took it upon herself to take it out on him publicly and professionally. THAT was the backstory to a bad NCOER.. as in fraudulently bad not just difference of opinion bad
Absolutely and as MAJ Carl Ballinger also stated.. knowing the why is vitally important.
I was asked to review an NCOER once, it was scathing in its assessment. The senior rater was at odds with his perception of the NCO vs the rater.
I took a few weeks and spent time being in the same workspace as the rater and NCO. I overheard many derogatory comments to the NCO and to fellow officers and subordinates about that rated NCO.
Among some of the most troublesome NCOER notations were the NO block for Honor and Integrity.
More so because I found out the source of the displeasure that Captain had that led to the public and written chastising. He had cut off an improper relationship when the female captain. BOTH were married, the he was legally separated and divorced all but completed, just waiting out a statutory required "cooling off at the time (still against regulations but at least morally not as repugnate)
So this married Captain , still living with her spouse was scorned by her fellow adulterer and took it upon herself to take it out on him publicly and professionally. THAT was the backstory to a bad NCOER.. as in fraudulently bad not just difference of opinion bad
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CW4 Tim Claus
SGM Erik Marquez - I have written some devastating NCOERs and OERs, but for them to be effective, they must be factual, impartial and with the goal of correcting performance for the betterment of the mission. The eval received, good or bad, must be proportional to the performance being recorded.
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Captain is allowed to make a professional opinion about the SFC.
Captain is NOT allowed to make ANY opinion about SFC's family. Escalate "informally." First to his CoC (preferably to someone high enough to light a fire at the Captain's level) then in the Captain's CoC. If they are the same, more the better.
If that does not resolve the issue, make a "formal" complaint (like through the IG).
Regardless of what transpired between the Captain and the SFC (or who was right or wrong), it shouldn't be repeated by the Captain in public. The matter ended, and this just adds more fuel to the flame.
CC SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
Captain is NOT allowed to make ANY opinion about SFC's family. Escalate "informally." First to his CoC (preferably to someone high enough to light a fire at the Captain's level) then in the Captain's CoC. If they are the same, more the better.
If that does not resolve the issue, make a "formal" complaint (like through the IG).
Regardless of what transpired between the Captain and the SFC (or who was right or wrong), it shouldn't be repeated by the Captain in public. The matter ended, and this just adds more fuel to the flame.
CC SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
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1SG Patrick McKelvey
LTC Paul Labrador - LTC attention to detail is paramount here Sir, calling another soldier a PoS "one way exchange with a CPT in which she directed towards a Senior NCO (SFC) in a derogatory, belittling and denigrating expressing her personal feelings toward such SFC" , "you are a sorry a$$ excuse of an NCO", " you are the biggest piece of $hit I know" and continued to go on not just about such Senior NCO but included the family members." is not "scolding" it's showing your ass in an unprofessional escalation of out of control temper in a public environment. On that note as well, "scolding" is not what professionals do, we make On the Spot Corrections or counseling verbal or written. While I concur that there is of course more to the story given the facts at hand she acted unprofessionally, used her position for the purposes of personally attacking a soldier in a public environment and regardless of his performance of a task or mission stacking family members is NEVER acceptable behavior. Then walking around braqging ie. "CPT has gone around telling Soldiers how "she ripped in to this SFC with a grin"... " is again counter productive to good order and discipline by undermining the subordinate CoC. BLUF she is forever glad that I was not the 1SG there as I indeed would have gotten some of THAT ass with my CO IMMEDIATELY for acting in a manner destructive to unit performance then gloating to further her performance. And I wager you Sir, my entire yearly salary, this is NOT the first time the CPT in question has acted in this manner, and continues to do so due to FEAR, NEGLIGENCE or IGNORANCE of the SM actions by her chain of command. Just my opinion but if its not OK up the chain in my house it sure as hell is not OK DOWN the chain, oh wait that's not my opinion its Army Regulation (and effective, but hey lets not drag enhancing unit performance and mission accomplishment into this exchange) ask more than one Officer or NCO if I ruthlessly enforced that if you like....pretty sure I read this stuff in a book somewhere...
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COL David Pelkey
1SG Patrick McKelvey - What one person calls counseling another calls scolding. You stated yourself more information is needed (including what's true and what's exaggerated), but you're taking a lot of it on faith and interpretation. Making a lot of assumptions on the details, many of which are opinions, not facts.
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SFC Charles Miller
Calling an NCO a POS is not counseling! Bringing their family into any negative conversation is also not professional! I don't care WHO you are! Family is off limits where counseling or opinions are concerned!
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CW4 Tim Claus
COL David Pelkey - Counseling is only effective when it is calm, impartial and factually based. Even then, it doesn't always take the first time, hence the need for documentation. Once the senior individual resorts to profanity, excess volume or loses their composure, the counseling is completely ineffective.
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Do not engage until you have made a legible memorandum of your best recollection of the situation, w/ multiple copies! When you can recite the situation off the top of your head, go forward!
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It is immaturity on the part of the officer. You can absolutely slam someone without cussing or getting personal. It is as simple as telling them they are ineffective and what standard they are not meeting, but you have to have the counselings as you attempt to bring them to standard. You cannot yell at someone and trash talk their family.
In this case take it to the chain of command. This officer may need to be ushered out of the Army and one referred OER or GOMAR for toxic leadership will do the trick. This isn't a UCMJ issue, but the chain has every tool needed. I would only go to IG if the chain appears unwilling to act, but if there are witnesses there should be an investigation and fire up the toaster.
In this case take it to the chain of command. This officer may need to be ushered out of the Army and one referred OER or GOMAR for toxic leadership will do the trick. This isn't a UCMJ issue, but the chain has every tool needed. I would only go to IG if the chain appears unwilling to act, but if there are witnesses there should be an investigation and fire up the toaster.
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1SG (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - It is a good thing and expected, handling things from the bottom up but when somebody is willing and at a moments notice curses and rants and embarrasses a Sr Leader, the NCOER is usually the next jab that that unprofessional leader takes and then you have a professional document with personal feelings on it. SO, who's career are we going to save at that point? And doing a CDR's inquiry does not stop that report from getting into the Soldiers records. One sub par NCOER and you are done! Cutting the head off the snake is important. There is no room for mistakes between professionals
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SGM Robin Johnson
MAJ (Join to see) - It has been a few days so I wasn't going to chime in, but I see you are still serving, so I want to offer some mentorship. I served as the EO SGM for an Army DRU for my last 3 years and some change in the Army. I was TDY about half the year at our units around the globe, and my LTG and CSM asked me to spend a lot of time with the young command teams to teach, coach and mentor because that was where we could make a difference. And seeing the number of LTCs, COLs, 1SGs, SGMs, and CSMs that needed to be relieved or removed from their positions I knew why. You seem very concerned that the Captain should just be given an opportunity to learn. Well, what exactly was her time as a 2LT and 1LT? If she didn't learn then the proper way to treat subordinates (which she obviously did not) why shouldn't she get harsher treatment now? If you had an NCO standing in front of you giving you a Private's excuse, would you accept it? And if she is treating a SNCO like this in public, how do you think she is treating a junior enlisted Soldier, who has less power and influence, in private? Rather than be concerned for HER career, how about being concerned for the careers and lives of her Soldiers?
Because at the end of the day, the chain of command IS the Army to those Soldiers. At work they have to suck it up, and when they see nothing happen in cases like this they figure no one in the chain of command cares how their Soldiers are treated. Then they go home and say "I hate the Army" when they really mean they hate that Captain, or YOU if they are your Soldiers. And when good Soldiers fail to reenlist it is often because bad leaders lost valuable talent and wasted Army training dollars. So please consider that rather than looking at the cost of a punishment to the person accused of a violation of the standards, you look at the cost to the victim of that violation, and at the cost to the unit of not taking appropriate corrective action, and the cost to the Army down the line if that violation is allowed to continue unchecked.
She either knew better or should have, and failed to meet the standard in a major and public way. If the facts are as stated, the fact that she attacked him personally is bad enough, but to bring his family into it shows that she has serious leadership flaws that have gone past the 'gentle correction' stage. If the next thing she did landed her in a front-page story of the Army Times and they recounted this story and said that your punishment for her actions was...telling her not to do it again...would you cringe? Believe me, the first time you are explaining your COA on an incident to CSA, you learn to appreciate having thought through your response from every person's perspective.
Because at the end of the day, the chain of command IS the Army to those Soldiers. At work they have to suck it up, and when they see nothing happen in cases like this they figure no one in the chain of command cares how their Soldiers are treated. Then they go home and say "I hate the Army" when they really mean they hate that Captain, or YOU if they are your Soldiers. And when good Soldiers fail to reenlist it is often because bad leaders lost valuable talent and wasted Army training dollars. So please consider that rather than looking at the cost of a punishment to the person accused of a violation of the standards, you look at the cost to the victim of that violation, and at the cost to the unit of not taking appropriate corrective action, and the cost to the Army down the line if that violation is allowed to continue unchecked.
She either knew better or should have, and failed to meet the standard in a major and public way. If the facts are as stated, the fact that she attacked him personally is bad enough, but to bring his family into it shows that she has serious leadership flaws that have gone past the 'gentle correction' stage. If the next thing she did landed her in a front-page story of the Army Times and they recounted this story and said that your punishment for her actions was...telling her not to do it again...would you cringe? Believe me, the first time you are explaining your COA on an incident to CSA, you learn to appreciate having thought through your response from every person's perspective.
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I would start with whoever the CPT reports to. Same as I would want one of my privates to go to the 1SG, if they felt that I would not handle their situation appropriately.
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SFC (Join to see)
Do you have reason to believe that person would not correct the situation? I am not sure of your organization, but I would go as high as I could in the chain of command before involving IG. Of course, I would work my way up and not jump to the top.
Has the SFC tried speaking privately with the CPT and see if it could be worked out at the lowest level? This would have been my first step.
Has the SFC tried speaking privately with the CPT and see if it could be worked out at the lowest level? This would have been my first step.
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SFC (Join to see)
The soldier is an SFC, so I would accept his judgement on that. IG is a possible alternative, I have just seen this route create more problems than it solves occasionally. However, sometimes it is the action needed to handle toxic leadership.
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CCMSgt (Join to see)
The SFC is a Senior NCO. It's a tough job, but earning that rocker means he has to give the Chain of Command the benefit of the doubt that they will do their job...
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What you describe is unacceptable. It's toxic leadership at it's finest and it is a systemic problem. As has been said many times, chain of command then IG. Demand accountability for this incident and the retaliation that will almost certainly follow her being held accountable.
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Sgt Michael Betts
I also concur. Even if the vituperation heaped upon the unfortunate NCO was deserved, not only is his family "out-of-bounds" but discussing the dressing down with ANYONE else is seriously unprofessional. In the Corps, we have "request mast" to bring concerns to senior officers and in this case, having a discussion with the battalion commander would be entirely appropriate. It would be up to the battalion CO (not any NCO) to then discuss the matter with the offending captain.
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