Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?

That I can stand behind SPC Gomez.

Good follow-up SPC Gomez.

SPC Gomez,

I'm not trying to be a jackass about it, but think it through... if someone has to stand at parade rest (or offer any type of military custom or courtesy) just because someone else deployed, how far would it go? One deployment has to stand at parade rest for two deployments? Any idea how many of our senior leaders haven't deployed? Should we disregard them because of it?

Rank implies experience. It implies a certain amount of wisdom. THAT'S what we offer our respect to. The person who has deployed might have sat in an office drinking coffee for 6 months, while the person who didn't deploy might have been in charge of running their section.

To address your situation specifically - it sounds an awful lot like the work of the good idea fairy. Someone got a little full of himself and started demanding respect. Think of it like this... someone who wanted respect made that the rule, but a LEADER would have (and should have) shut it down.

One more thing. For what it's worth, I'm glad you posted. This definitely isn't a site only for Senior NCOs, but there is a lot of experience lurking around. Read through the comments and use these guys' knowledge when you pin your stripes.

SSG (Join to see) , he was and as far as I know he has long since separated from the Army.

Very good chief.

Yes, Sir!

While it is a sign of respect... It should not be required and then have the reg used as a reason when the reg states otherwise.

His position doesn't make him an NCO.

I am for the first time on RP actually offended by your comment PFC Eric Ziems. I worked damn hard for my SPC4 rank in the 1980's. They didn't give any corporal stripes out in Germany during my time there. SPC4's were team leaders in the infantry. I may not of demanded someone to stand at parade rest, but I can tell you that we worked for our SPC4. And guess what? They did not have to promote you to SPC4 then.

I guess the military has changed dramatically since I was in..... What happened....?

E-4 SPC comes automatically with 2 years time in service. Things must've been different when you were in. But from what I see in the army now it doesn't take much effort at all anymore to get your SPC.

Sorry, I don't think its appropriate to go to parade rest for a SPC. Sorry, they are not NCOs. While they are team leaders and of course deserve respect, they are NOT NCOs. I am an infantryman as well and some units insist on going to parade rest for SPCs and I think it is silly. 

Sorry Specialist, I don't agree. Privates are privates, even at PFC. We don't stand at parade rest for other privates or specialists because we are junior enlisted, not NCOs. That idea don't work well between Senior NCOs and Warrant officers because all officers are saluted by all enlisted personnel.

SFC (Join to see) voted you up for fighting against the down vote

I can't believe senior NCOs saying that SPC is a dumb ass rank. Common sense dictates that not everyone wants to be a leader, or are ready to become a leader based on TIS. In combat units there is the rank of corporal for those Soldiers that have demonstrated exceptional leadership potential, and the platoon chain of command recommends to the company/troop/battery chain of command to laterally promote this guy. Then, I have to say this, isn't the rank of SGM a dumbass rank? Same Good Money as a CSM.

Wow, voted down again? There are a lot of fans of the SPC rank, especially those that never wore it.
LTC Mark Gavula what you say is common sense is in essence advocating people merely collecting a paycheck rather than moving up and doing what the Army ultimately asked them to do, Lead and Train our soldiers. If a person does not want to be a leader they should re-evaluate why they joined the US Army, we are a profession of arms and that requires leaders. Like any profession you start at the bottom and work your way to a leadership position. If you choose not to then you are not doing what the job requires and should be made to leave, much like many NCO's and Officers are being asked to do these days.
You know very well there is a HUGE difference between the abilities and duties of a SPC and SGM. For one the SGM was selected by a board of seniors based on their leadership ability, performance and potential versus the SPC who merely had the requisite TIS/TIG and stayed out of trouble, much like junior officers are promoted.
If we never challenge our junior leaders they will never step up and it has always been my practice to empower those not showing leadership traits with duties that will draw out the leader in them.
Todays generation of soldiers are increasingly introverted and anti-social and were more often than not never challenged to be a leader until they joined the Army. It is MY DUTY to train those that will fill my boots and lead the future Army and hiding behind the "SHAM SHIELD" that the SPC rank is often referred to as will not cut it.
You don't want to lead that's fine, move over and make room for those that do and seek employment elsewhere.

SFC from Ft. Campbell. You are correct, I never wore the rank of specialist. You do make some great points. I know you agree there are those Soldiers who are SPCs and those who are stripe wearers who should not be NCOs aka leaders. There are Soldiers that enlist in the Army to serve their country with no intention of re-enlisting beyond their initial enlistment period who do not want to be an NCO. CSM Elder writes in his essay, The Short History of the Specialist Rank, that "the Specialist is in the normal career
progression for enlisted soldiers in between the career path of going from an apprentice enlisted soldier, to the journeymen role associated with noncommissioned officers." The apprentice enlisted Soldier is the time he/she is learning to be a Soldier, Soldier & MOS tasks and leadership. This is the time when the NCO's are coaching, teaching and mentoring. NCO's will evaluate the Soldiers potential and as you say if they don't possess the attitude, aptitude or where with all to learn his MOS skills and develop into a leader the NCOs counsel in writing and recommend he or she should not re-enlist and find employment elsewhere. If that Soldier possess the requisites to become a solid leader than promote to corporal and develop him or her.

In closing, I have to say, that everyone that endorses Pvts, PFCs to stand at parade rest for specialists when you get in a position to influence policy, SOP or improve upon the regulation make it so because it is not required IAW the big A Army. Overall, I now grow weary of this discussion.

Thats all well and good but when I was in an infantry unit we didn't even have corporals. All E-4's were SPC 4.

I mean in my company... not sure about the battalion..

irrelevant. You stand at parade rest for NCOs, which Specialists are not.

I do not think that it matters at that level unless the PFC is being disrespectful to the SPC.

SGT(P) William Kesler , The FM does not make a distinction of "if the SPC is a team leader". It specifies NCOs.

However, that does not preclude the CSM of a unit requiring
that PFCs on a team doing that for a SPC who is a Team Leader. However, I would suggest making that SPC a CPL to keep from running into that kind of issue.

If that SPC was a team leader then he should be a corporal. So the Company needs to make a decision, give him stripes or tell him to sit down.

SFC (Join to see) , so the 2LT should salute the SPC??

SSG (Join to see) , nah... Then that SPC would go around making Junior Enlisted members stand at parade rest! LOL

It's all a vicious circle!

Wisely staying out of that conversation...

Honestly, as someone who had to do it.... meh.. Pretty much all Specialists in my Infantry Battalion were treated as trainee NCOs. They technically should have been converted to Corporals due to the billets they were holding but people get lazy about that paperwork stuff. So, knowing the fact that they were in a team leader (NCO) billet, should be a corporal anyway, and would probably be a SGT before we came home from Iraq, it didn't bug me.

I guess it is kind of like saluting cadets.... except the specialist has actually accomplished something. :) Oh.. important caveat. The only Privates who stood at parade rest for each Specialist were that Specialist's rated subordinates. As in, that Specialist conducted monthly counseling with the Private. Specialists could smoke Privates, though playing with Privates that weren't yours would still get you reported to someone as it always does. :)

.

Its a sign of respect for Rank.

First, it is "Junior Enlisted". Not lower.
Second, it is true that many SPCs exhibit leadership by way of their position or just the nature of their job. However, As outlined in the FM 7-21.13 proper Customs and Courtesies do not authorize a SPC to require other Junior Enlisted to stand at Parade Rest.

I have seen SPC abuse power before, not necessarily a good idea, unless he/she has been designated as the second in charge. If that is the case, they should request permission to wear CPL Rank. I have seen this done in Quartermaster Units. Then they would truly be an NCO, and have to have the respect of an NCO. This was brought up when I was in, that if a SPC was in charge, or in a leadership role, they should be authorized to wear CPL stripes

I understand completely, on Both points. No they are not required too. I was just implying that it depended on the situation. But for the most part I completely agree.

You Marines got it good...

OK. My last response to this extraordinarily important dialogue. 1. Any SPC that demands that a private of any grade stand at parade rest needs to be in the Commander's office, at which time he needs appropriate counseling. 2. NCO's are in charge--that is their responsibility. They deserve the respect of a junior Soldier standing at Parade Rest while being addressed, unless the NCO or Officer indicates "at ease." We have the corporal rank throughout the Army. In fact, in my over 29 years of Service, I have seen this rank return. It is an important rank, as it indicates that the Commander feels this Soldier is a positive candidate for NCO and the Soldier has strong potential for leadership. Notwithstanding the significantly important culture of the US Marines, CPL is a very junior NCO, and should step lightly on how he/she manages his/her junior Soldiers. If a private immediately goes to parade rest, the CPL can be assured it was not their rank, but their personal respect. Does the CPL deserve to have a private of any grade come to parade rest when they address them? ABSOLUTELY. The CPL is an NCO. Thanks to all of you for this incredible dialogue. The Army has a very special culture, and it is all about making sure that in a war environment the leader can lead and be successful. Discipline is not about I am more "special" than you, but about leaders being deservedly chosen and being given the "authority" to assure that they are safely followed. I am incredibly proud of my father who retired as a MSG(P). He tought me all the values of respect, not just that of rank, but that of how you handle your subordinates. It is all about mentorship. Senior NCOs, mentor your junior NCOs. Don't make a mockery of SPCs who are perhaps "abusing" their power. Teach them privately that rank is important, but ultimately respect is earned. I would rather go to war with Soldiers that respect me because I earned it than depend on Soldiers who respect me only for my rank.

CSM William Johnson , That was my experience. The SPC was an 11B and I was in an Infantry Battalion. I just stood a Parade Rest for him and drove on.

Its not about a power trip, it is about respect and discipline. I would hope the SPC, Soldier would do the same.

While I personally never had any PFC or below stand at Parad Rest when I was a SPC it doesnt surprise me that some E4's would need to lock someone up for a good reason. At then end of the day (when I was in) if you were outranked you obeyed no questions asked. But this was combat arms so Im sure different units behave differently and have different norms.

My son is now serving (in my old unit even 1/19SFG) and he is a new NCO, he tells me some Soldiers litterally roll thier eyes and ignore NCO's in his Unit. I told him if a subordinate ever pulled that crap to strait up council him in writing! Its the Army not Club Med damit.

Disciplin in my opinion means the difference between life and death and those who cant take it seriously should consider a different line of work. But again, just my opinion.