Posted on Sep 18, 2014
Should PFCs stand at "Parade Rest" for a SPC?
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We had Lieutenants saluting each other, now I ask this: Should an E-3 stand at the position of parade rest for an E4 Specialist (not a corporal)?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed.
I remember when I was a PFC, I had a Specialist who was adamant about all E3s and below standing at parade rest in front of him. Was he right?
What say you RP?
Posted in these groups: 
Customs and Courtesies
NCOs
Customs and Courtesies NCOs
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 180
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This is silly. Everyone knows you salute a SPC first then you stand at parade rest......while your Squad Leader punches both of you in the throat.
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SSG (Join to see)
You have to find the Specialist first - usually they are hiding behind something while the new Privates finish off the detail.
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SSgt (Join to see)
My question is would Chuck Norris get a reprimand for showing up to formation with his beard? Would the CC snap to attention and salute said beard?
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If a PFC stood at parade rest in front of me, my first instinct would be to mouth, "Who.Is.Behind.Me?"
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) So glad you threw that in, because that is exactly what i was thinking.
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) and SGT (Join to see), yep. When we update in this forum, RP definitely goes allll the way back.
On the downside, I look like an undisciplined wuss of an NCO.
On the upside, I'm cool as hell.
In reality, when a soldier stands at parade rest for me, I give them kudos for discipline, even when I tell them to "at ease." Actually, it's these soldiers who I have in the most confidence in :)
On the downside, I look like an undisciplined wuss of an NCO.
On the upside, I'm cool as hell.
In reality, when a soldier stands at parade rest for me, I give them kudos for discipline, even when I tell them to "at ease." Actually, it's these soldiers who I have in the most confidence in :)
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SPC Jeffrey Bly
I always knew my place as a Specialist and never abused it, but I always tried to look out for those below me in rank.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
Cpl Christopher Bishop - That is correct, in the Army a E-4 Specialist is not in the chain of command. The Marine Rifle Platoon pushes the NCO's down one rank from what is normal in the Army, a Staff Sergeant as Platoon Sergeant instead of an E7 Army Platoon Sergeant, Sergeants instead of Staff Sergeants as Squad Leaders, and Corporals instead of Sergeants leading a Fire Team. There are Army Corporals, but you won't see that a lot. So that PVC aught to stand at parade rest addressing you since you are both a NCO and generally have a position that would reinforce that authority, like Team Leader.
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You answered your own question!
"Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO"
A SPC is not an NCO!
"Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO"
A SPC is not an NCO!
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SSG Brian Carpenter
I stand corrected apparently I forgot look it up yourself first BWAHAHAHAHA my apologies. Been a long time since retirement
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For the love of Audie Murphy and everything right in this world, STOP THE MADNESS!!!
We all know a SPC is not an NCO so FM 7-21.13 does not apply.
We all know a SPC is not an NCO so FM 7-21.13 does not apply.
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
Oh I agree 100% with that. There are only two ranks in the entire Army system up to an individual: SGT and SSG, otherwise it is the commander E-1 thru 4 and the centralized board after SSG, and as for the other ranks, well you know.
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LTC Mark Gavula
FM 7-21.13 is doctrine not regulation. What is the or is there a regulation that covers this topic. If there is such a regulation, NCO's should know this, I was an officer and relied on my NCO's to keep me straight.
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PFC Steven Joiner
What if he/she is your sqaud leader,does this not make them slightly more than just a full bird private? In this case I would say parade rest is respect for the position. It is good for all military tradition
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The last time I checked 4 trumps 3. A PFC standing at parade rest and addressing a SPC by rank with the proper courtesy and respect is the same as a SFC standing at parade rest for a CSM. Saying that a Soldier does not have to stand at parade rest for those that out-rank them is exactly what is wrong with this Army today. We as Senior NCOs and Leaders don't enforce these simple standards on our subordinates, but we get all pissy and butt-hurt when they get used to that mentality and don't stand at parade rest for us. If I ever saw a PFC talking back to SPC and disrespecting them I would light that Private up so fast it would make them cry. All these hypocrites piss and moan that there is no discipline among junior enlisted, but then turn around a promote an environment in which is it acceptable to disrespect those that are senior in rank to you. A SPC can be slotted as a Fire Team Leader in an Infantry Platoon, but Privates don't need to respect them as leaders?
I've read a few responses that say a SPC should earn CPL stripes if they want Privates to stand at Parade Rest for them. That goes right back to my previous argument that the Army should do away with SPC rank and promote from PFC to CPL. Teach Soldiers the grow up and be leaders from the very beginning and prove that you have what it takes to wear NCO stripes and that you have what it takes to lead and train Soldiers and future leaders!
I've read a few responses that say a SPC should earn CPL stripes if they want Privates to stand at Parade Rest for them. That goes right back to my previous argument that the Army should do away with SPC rank and promote from PFC to CPL. Teach Soldiers the grow up and be leaders from the very beginning and prove that you have what it takes to wear NCO stripes and that you have what it takes to lead and train Soldiers and future leaders!
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MSG (Join to see)
SFC Jason Kendrick I completely concur on the "leader" perspective. I was brought up as an 11B from PVT-SSG and I learned real quick that if you mouth of to a Specialist that you better hydrate because your bags are fixing to get smoked. Much to the same when I became a SPC and I was inducted to the E-4 Mafia and made a Fire Team Leader myself. I believe that it all starts at the beginning and that sets the tone for someone's entire length of service.
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SFC David Zamora
I don't remember this being any sort of real issue in my time. As you pointed out, SPC can be a TL and if they're in that position, then usually we were "expected" (at the Squad/PLT level) to render the same courtesies to them as if they were an NCO. That being said, The SPC in that TL position never had any authority to enforce that internal practice and it was usually another TL, SGT/E-5 type, that commenced to scuffing up privates that they witnessed failing to comply with the Platoon's internal practice.
It's just one of those things I guess. I
Had a SFC as a First Sergeant once who had made the 8 list but I wasn't frocked yet so, while he still wore SFC rank, we in the unit still addressed him as 1SG. Anyone outside of the unit wouldn't or couldn't be expected to do so of course.
It's just one of those things I guess. I
Had a SFC as a First Sergeant once who had made the 8 list but I wasn't frocked yet so, while he still wore SFC rank, we in the unit still addressed him as 1SG. Anyone outside of the unit wouldn't or couldn't be expected to do so of course.
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SPC (Join to see)
I got to a new unit and did something that was perfectly fine in my previous. I had a PFC correct me, which is fine because he was setting me straight. Right after the correction he said, "Do it again I'll smoke the dog shit out of you!" I'm a Spec 4... I have never lost it on another Soldier but this time I did. I agree, outrank is an outrank regardless if both are Junior Enlisted. E1 should show proper respect to E2, E2 to E3 and up. If we want a disciplined Army we have to enforce it at all ranks, just not Junior Enlisted to NCOs and Officers.
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SPC Matthew Birkinbine
MSG (Join to see) , I completely agree. At subordinate levels, leaders may add to, but may not take away from Army policies and regulations. Just because no regulation enforces that junior enlisted personnel provide customs and courtesies, to juniors who are senior to them, doesn't mean that they flat shouldn't. It's good practice, pursuant to good order and discipline, for a senior or junior NCO in the platoon/section level leadership position, to inform junior personnel of their position in the hierarchy, and instill those behaviors and disciplines at the lowest level.
I commend you for your efforts to train junior personnel to become effective leaders. If I, as a specialist, see a fellow junior enlisted leader struggling to maintain good order and discipline among his/her subordinates, I should, also as a junior leader, be able to back up my battle buddy in the event that an NCO, junior or senior, is not immediately present. Granted, junior leaders need the guidance of that mid-level/senior NCO to know our boundaries and how we can enforce policy, not being NCOes yet, but the majority of us are trainable, as evidenced by completion of training to date.
I commend you for your efforts to train junior personnel to become effective leaders. If I, as a specialist, see a fellow junior enlisted leader struggling to maintain good order and discipline among his/her subordinates, I should, also as a junior leader, be able to back up my battle buddy in the event that an NCO, junior or senior, is not immediately present. Granted, junior leaders need the guidance of that mid-level/senior NCO to know our boundaries and how we can enforce policy, not being NCOes yet, but the majority of us are trainable, as evidenced by completion of training to date.
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I say about a million freaking times NO!! If you want an E3 standing at parade rest for an E4, go join the Marine Corps where Corporals are NCOs. Otherwise, unless the Specialist was laterally promoted to Corporal, they don't have any authority trying to lock up Privates.
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Suspended Profile
PFC Koepke. You and your SSG are wrong. Because there is a reason that SPC is a SPC and you're or were a PFC, the rank system is more than a pay system, it is there to make sure that we have clear guide lines to who is taking charge if the person in charge is down. If I see one of my PVTs disrespecting a SPC or someone higher than him I will make sure that it is not going to happen again.
2LT (Join to see)
A couple months ago at drill, I was assigned by a superior specialist to help a PV2 make noodles. When we screwed up the noodles based on the PV2's cooking instructions, I was blamed even though the PV2 was primarily assigned to the product. If I do not pull rank on the privates I work with, then I will still be held responsible for their mistakes. I don't ask them to stand at parade rest, but I will take charge of everything within my lane, even if it means pulling rank.
I do agree with SSG Palmer, in that silly disagreements are not won by a comparison of rank.
I do agree with SSG Palmer, in that silly disagreements are not won by a comparison of rank.
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Cpl Aaron Johnson
What if I came from the marine corps? I earned my stripes. I got out of the corps a cpl and join the army as a spc with no real...abilities to enforce the standard customs and courtesies that should be well known and practiced throughout the military. I still don't even understand why there is a split at e4, it's rediculous. But I'll be damned if a shiny new private doesn't put his hands behind his back when I'm telling him what needs to get done
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It blew my mind when I returned to Fort McClellan many years ago as a SPC and some Private in the PX scared the bejesus out of me snapping to parade rest to allow me to pass in the aisle! Was awesome, but freaked me out at the time. Hell as a CW5 I barely get a salute anymore.
This was the 80s of course!
This was the 80s of course!
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SFC (Join to see)
CW5 Sam Baker it burns me up to hear this! You are subject matter expert and a officer and there is no reason! NONE! That you do not receive the proper respects! Sorry this just fires me up. I recently made a troop get off the phone and render a salute and proper greeting of the day to, two CW's that walked by this troop while on the phone and CW's kept walking. I asked them to come back, render the proper respects and asked them to walk by the troop again so they can be given the proper respect. They were appreciative.
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SSG Tim Everett
CW5 Sam R. Baker you probably don't get many salutes because the CW5 is that rare, mythical bird that causes many a soldier, enlisted and officer alike, to stand around gawping and wondering (possibly aloud) "w... wa... was that a CW5?"
And if I may say so, sir, you look mighty good for a CW5 -- and by that I mean, the two CW5s I ever saw in my entire life were both possibly in their 60s and looked like a prospector out of the 1849 gold rush. One had a handlebar mustache, because who's really going to tell the closest thing to G-d that his mustache is out of regs?
And if I may say so, sir, you look mighty good for a CW5 -- and by that I mean, the two CW5s I ever saw in my entire life were both possibly in their 60s and looked like a prospector out of the 1849 gold rush. One had a handlebar mustache, because who's really going to tell the closest thing to G-d that his mustache is out of regs?
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CW5 Sam R. Baker
SSG Tim Everett , the look thing I think is just sticking around young SCREAMING EAGLES and Soldiers who keep me challenged to hang and fend off the "OLD MAN" mystique. I actually joined late in life at the ripe age of 24 and having just pushed over the hill the year before last, I hope you all keep me young a tad bit longer. The head is the kids and HH06's idea since 2002, so the gray doesn't show so much and well I don't do "Old School" mustaches! Thanks and I am hoping those guys were in the ARNG or AR, no offense to those folks however.
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I believe this is my first meme posted to RallyPoint. Turning a new page, because I found this extremely funny.
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SSG Willis Baker
This is funny because it reminds me when I was in AIT, one evening a few of us went to movie theater on Ft. Gordon and speed marched all the way there.
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The answer is simply found in the question, "FM 7-21.13 The Soldiers Guide in Chapter 4 addresses customs and courtesies. It states that Soldiers junior in rank will stand at parade rest when addressing an NCO unless otherwise directed." A SPC is not an NCO, thus does not require parade rest.
As a SPC, I would not want PFC and below standing at parade rest for me, as I have not yet earned that show of respect that comes with being an NCO.
On a side note, since we are on the topic of the SPC, a buddy of mine sent this to me. I hope you enjoy it...
The Specialist Creed
No one gets away with more than I. I am a non Non-Commissioned Officer, a beast of burden. As a junior enlisted soldier I realize that I am a member of an under appreciated, much chastised group of soldiers which is known as the ribcage, or perhaps pancreas, of the Army.
I am proud of myself and my fellow Specialists and will continue to bitch, whine and sham until the absolute last second regardless of the mission at hand. I will use my grade and position to avoid responsibility, accountability and any sense of presence of mind.
Ignorance is my watchword. My two best excuses will always be on the tip of my tongue “I didn’t know,” and “It wasn’t me.” I will strive to remain invisible and unavailable for details. Never ever volunteer for anything is my rallying cry.
I am aware of my role as a SPC and if you need me for anything, I’ll be on appointment.
I know the other soldiers, and I will always refer to them by their first name or in some cases derogatory nickname. On weekends, or days off I will consistently drink myself into oblivion, and I will never answer my phone. I understand that for a person in my hierarchal position, rewards are going to be few and far between, and punishment will always be swift and severe.
Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties, because I will be accomplishing them for them. I will kiss up to their face and badmouth them behind their back, just like everyone else. I will be loyal to those with home I serve, provided there’s something in it for me.
I am the last bastion of common sense that stands between me and the Army philosophy of “Work Harder, Not Smarter.” My voice is a tool and my complaints are a weapon that I wield with unmatched skill and finesse. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget, Specialist is the greatest rank in the Army and rank has its privileges.
As a SPC, I would not want PFC and below standing at parade rest for me, as I have not yet earned that show of respect that comes with being an NCO.
On a side note, since we are on the topic of the SPC, a buddy of mine sent this to me. I hope you enjoy it...
The Specialist Creed
No one gets away with more than I. I am a non Non-Commissioned Officer, a beast of burden. As a junior enlisted soldier I realize that I am a member of an under appreciated, much chastised group of soldiers which is known as the ribcage, or perhaps pancreas, of the Army.
I am proud of myself and my fellow Specialists and will continue to bitch, whine and sham until the absolute last second regardless of the mission at hand. I will use my grade and position to avoid responsibility, accountability and any sense of presence of mind.
Ignorance is my watchword. My two best excuses will always be on the tip of my tongue “I didn’t know,” and “It wasn’t me.” I will strive to remain invisible and unavailable for details. Never ever volunteer for anything is my rallying cry.
I am aware of my role as a SPC and if you need me for anything, I’ll be on appointment.
I know the other soldiers, and I will always refer to them by their first name or in some cases derogatory nickname. On weekends, or days off I will consistently drink myself into oblivion, and I will never answer my phone. I understand that for a person in my hierarchal position, rewards are going to be few and far between, and punishment will always be swift and severe.
Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties, because I will be accomplishing them for them. I will kiss up to their face and badmouth them behind their back, just like everyone else. I will be loyal to those with home I serve, provided there’s something in it for me.
I am the last bastion of common sense that stands between me and the Army philosophy of “Work Harder, Not Smarter.” My voice is a tool and my complaints are a weapon that I wield with unmatched skill and finesse. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget, Specialist is the greatest rank in the Army and rank has its privileges.
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Where is that Specialist creed at! Diiferent units do different things. In the infantry world i have heard of E-fuzzies standing at parade rest by Pfc's. Aviation on the other hand it rarely happens at all. It should come to position within the Coc. If the specialist is a squad leader then they are in an Nco's role and should be rendered the customs and courtesy.
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