Posted on May 28, 2016
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I am an atheist, but I also believe strongly in the right to practice your own religion freely. When it comes to ceremonies, I believe that prayer could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. I believe this because there are many different beliefs recognized by the government (atheism/agnosticism, satanism, Buddhism/Hinduism, etc...) that fall outside of the Christian spectrum, and having a Chaplin lead prayer before mandatory events forces non-believers and followers of different faiths to participate in a practice outside of their own. Is it just me, or should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events such as promotion/graduation ceremonies and commander calls to ensure religious freedom is enforced?
Posted in these groups: Atheism symbol AtheismAfp getty 511269685 CeremonyWorld religions 2 Religion
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Maj John Bell
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Edited 8 y ago
I respect and am grateful for your view on Religious expression. Unfortunately it is not universally held by some atheists and agnostic theists. Every year my wife's employer hosts a winter holiday party. Every year he wishes me "Happy Holidays". Every year I wish him "Merry Christmas". Every year he says that he runs an inclusive workplace, and that wishing people a "Merry Christmas" is exclusionary. And every year, I tell him that I was extending best wishes of me and hopefully of my God. I additionally tell him that his inclusive policy just made me feel uncomfortable and excluded because he just told me that my faith was unwelcome. Just to put icing on my efforts to be an ass, I tell him the etymology of the word "holidays" is "Holy Days". Then we don't talk again for the rest of the night. I admit I do not always behave like a good Christian.

Religion should not be a formal part of compulsory ceremonies. It should never be compulsory to listen to someone's religious expression. But, that does not mean that religion should be banned from the public square or hidden from non-compulsory sight. There is plenty of room for religious expression in uniform at voluntary events where a service member's personal story is part of the event. For instance it would be inappropriate for the government to ban or censor the prayer of a Chaplain at a military funeral at Arlington National Cemetery if the service member or their family requested it. If a service member were asked what contributed to their success in the military or what got them through a combat crap sandwich a brief expression of their faith would not be inappropriate as long as it was not a set up to guarantee that they could proselytize.

I personally find it humorous when someone is outraged by an expression of religious faith in the public square, or they go beyond their legitimate right to hold and express their own belief and feel obligated to attack the beliefs of people of faith. They feel that their attack to discredit is an expression of their faith. It isn't. Its just being a contrarian ass.
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TSgt Kerry Hardy
TSgt Kerry Hardy
8 y
Maj John Bell - Without religion we are colonizing space and traveling to or stars. Was not world politics as the church was the rule of the land during dark ages. See Galileo Galilei about how the church handled scientific growth....

"Furthermore, it is hardly fair to lay the blame at the feet of religion for world conflict. Then as now, most conflicts are about control of resources, obtaining power, or maintaining power. People may have appropriated religion as justification for their actions, but religion was hardly the cause."

That statement proves that religion is the reason and that without it the world would be better place....
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
8 y
What is your offer of proof that " Without religion we are colonizing space and traveling to or stars."?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_science

Your antipathy toward religion has blinded you to any good and to any scientific advancement fostered by religion. Your view is at best myopic and one-sided.
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Lt Col Commander
Lt Col (Join to see)
8 y
Maj John Bell - You are exactly right... I researched these statistics in one of my undergrad classes about 20 years ago and the numbers don't lie--absolutely undeniable that secular humanism and evolutionist thinking has directly resulted in hundreds of times more death and suffering than all "religious" death combined. Interestingly, atheists take free license to bunch all religions together to count it against God... I would add here that not all done in the name of God is consistent with the will of God -- we are still talking about people with free will... free to hate, free to kill. Jesus said many would profess to have done great things for God in the judgment and Jesus will declare He never knew them... so there are many-many false followers too. In any case, well made point by the numbers!
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Lt Col Commander
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CPT Battalion Air
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Should the rights and religious beliefs of the majority be stifled for the sensibilities of the minority? Particularly when no one is forcing anyone to pray, nor are judgements passed against those who consider themselves atheists or non-Christian. No where in the first amendment to the constitution was there a mention of a "wall of separation" between church and state. It proposed that the state shall not endorse any particular religion. I doubt that a prayer given at a military function constitutes the state endorsing any particular denomination or religion. This has been abused by many in the secular realm to abscond with the rights of th religious majority. This is frightening to me, particularly since there has been no threat to he irreligious minority from the religious majority.
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PFC Blake Hildebrand
PFC Blake Hildebrand
8 y
CPT John Sheridan - I've been personally reprimanded and I know others in my unit that were as well for not participating. They claimed it as disobeying a direct order or something like that. I don't remember the specifics.
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SMSgt Cary Baker
SMSgt Cary Baker
8 y
PFC Blake Hildebrand - That is over stepping. Now you have someone telling you and others to violate your religious freedom. I wouldn't have done it.
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CPT John Sheridan
CPT John Sheridan
8 y
PFC Blake Hildebrand - Hence the reason for this discussion and the need to enforce 1st Amendment protections for everyone.

CPT (Join to see) - Should the rights and beliefs of the minority be stifled for the sensibilities of the majority? Is it a violation of your free exercise to not allow you to force others to attend your religious practice? In our culture, it seems innocuous to say "bow your heads...". What if a commander was Muslim and told the formation to face Mecca and prostrate themselves? Would that too be OK?
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Capt Jason S.
Capt Jason S.
8 y
CPT John Sheridan - You are right, it is the sad truth. They don't know and even if they say it dosen't matter, they might still treat them differently. I have seen it in reverse many times. People treated me differently for being a Christian in the 82nd sometimes for the better, other times for the worse depending on the situation.
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SGM Matthew Quick
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Edited 8 y ago
This seems like another case of an individual thinking they're bigger than the whole/organization.

If you complain loud/long enough, A1C (Join to see), sadly this will get changed.

I'm not an overly religious person (meaning I don't talk much about it or push my beliefs on anyone), but while I serve, I believe stronger in traditions than personal faith...prayer is a military tradition and if you do not like/agree with it, you don't have to serve.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
SPC Corbin Sayi - "Instead, I frequently see "Athiests" who purposely disrespect head-down prayers by holding their head high and staring at everyone."

The disrespect is on the part of those who demand an atheist be compelled to bow his head. But damn right I will disrespect you for trying to illegally force me to grovel to your god.
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SrA Steve Chlebowski
SrA Steve Chlebowski
8 y
Capt Gregory Prickett - Excellent redirection. It absolutely IS evidence. It simply does not rise to your evidentiary standard as I pointed out. We can debate the validity of the evidence one piece at a time but that was not my point. Saying there is NO evidence is intellectually dishonest. So I ask you again, what is the standard you choose to apply to secular historical evidence?
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Capt Gregory Prickett
8 y
SrA Steve Chlebowski
I've addressed it above, but as long as you keep bringing up "personal observation" or "directly observed" as you have above, it is pointless to discuss it. Your focus on that observation is indicative of a deep misunderstanding of the scientific process and evidence, and it is not my job to teach you that. You state that there is evidence of god, but that's merely an assertion, not evidence. There's a difference.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
SrA Steve Chlebowski - You have provided no evidence, only baseless claims. I'm more than willing to consider any legitimate evidence, but thus far, nobody has ever produced any.
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Should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events?
Capt Retired
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It should neither be banned nor mandatory.
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Sgt Cannoneer
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8 y
It's the military. Everything that isn't banned IS mandatory.
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Capt Jason S.
Capt Jason S.
8 y
The military is not hard fast (Black and White) but grey Sgt. They want you to believe it is all hard fast and solid (black and white) but as you are in longer you will learn the true color is grey. The Russians military leaders talk about how they can never beat the US military because of our ever changing ways and we don't follow our own rules and regulations which makes us unpredictable and dangerous. You have not been in long enough to learn this or your leadership have not taught you this yet.
My Platoon Sargent had a quote from a Russian General that went like this: We know The American strategies just as good as The Yanks but we will never win against them because unlike The Russian troops when given an order to take a hill the will attack regardless and all die. The Americans Officer will give an order to take the hill and his NCO will looks at it the same hill and if it is too dangerous for a head on assault will look for a better way to take the hill to lose the least number of men. Thus changing their strategy on the fly so no force in the world will ever know why The Americans are doing?
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SGM Mikel Dawson
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Prayer has been a tradition for many years. If you're not religious, then just stop and take a quite break while other observe. Is it such a big deal? I once had a General say to me, "Drill Sergeant, you're pole vaulting over fly shit". And that's my feeling on the subject, making mountains out of mole hills.
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Capt Michael Greene
Capt Michael Greene
8 y
CDR Jon Corrigan - No sir, "stating your opinion" is NOT what you did. Do you really believe that the "just an opinion" of a naval commander is really just an opinion? Have you been out so long that you've forgotten how much credibility and authority your words have? Do you really think you're just an old civilian guy with an opinion like anyone else? I don't think so.

Without knowing him or his record, we must assume a few things about the airman. I think he's at least average smart, at least average character, and has at least an average career of leadership ahead of him. My words, your words, everyone else's words have some influence on how he develops.

I hope that, as a leader, you can help our young service members maximize their potential value to our country.

If not, of course, then it is your right to assume the role of a former leader, instead.
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CDR Jon Corrigan
CDR Jon Corrigan
8 y
Capt Michael Greene -
Take a gander at some of the other current threads Ms Greene - the posts from junior members attacking O-6's for expressing their opinions. I don't agree with you one bit - if the A1C that saw fit to begin this conversation can't defend him/herself without assistance from others, then perhaps they shouldn't be posting anything here. Additionally, you have no idea about the number of young service members I've assisted over the years. It's still my choice to not assist anyone stating something I completely disagree with. Apparently, that's your job.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
SGM Mikel Dawson - Great! Now we can tell our people to walk out of mandatory formations when they start pimping religion, because you told us to. Thanks so much for clearing that up.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
A1C (Join to see) Capt Michael Greene - Apparently someone spent too much time near the reactor on the sub. If someone has to crap on an airman who objects to his civil rights being violated, they've got too much time on their hands.
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LTC Immigration Judge
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I would love for prayer to be out of mandatory events, but doubt I will ever see it.
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PO1 Aviation Machinist's Mate
PO1 (Join to see)
8 y
Correction: I see no reason to exclude prayer from anything. If it doesn't sit well, pay no attention to it. Your disbelief is not mandatory is it? If so, who is accountable?
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Lt Col Robert Canfield
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There are two clauses to the first line of the 1st Amendment. Unfortunately, many try to enforce the first clause and ignore the second one:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

The first clause was placed in the Bill of Rights so that the State (i.e. Federal Govt) could NOT establish a "State Religion" as was done in 18th century England (and many other countries to this day). The second clause permits us to worship our conscious as we see fit without interference from the Government.

I am not a "Church-goer" and I am not an atheist. I think it is great that folks worship as they please. Faith gives us a moral code; something that is sorely lacking in today's "popped up culture". If I am sitting at a table and someone wants to say a prayer before a meal; I say have at it. I am honored to be included and it is a right so many have fought and died for----- over and over again. We all took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution". Well guess what? The second clause of the 1st Amendment is part of the Constitution.

The author of the Declaration said it best:
"...it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
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Lt Col Robert Canfield
Lt Col Robert Canfield
8 y
Well... some folks are given good advice and choose not to follow it. They are also usually the ones who throw away a good set of instructions and choose to assemble that piece of furniture by the seat of their pants.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
Lt Col Robert Canfield - Compulsory prayer (or compulsory bowing) at mandatory events violated the free exercise of those who object to participation. It doesn't matter what angle of the First Amendment you attack from, you are still violating a non-believer's rights.
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Lt Col Robert Canfield
Lt Col Robert Canfield
8 y
I don't think voluntary prayer should be banned, nor should it be compulsory. Remember, the first amendment is about Freedom OF religion, NOT Freedom FROM religion... a big difference. Besides aren't we supposed to be tolerant of those from other cultures, religions, races etc.? Those who are selectively tolerant, are not really being tolerant at all.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
You cannot have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. And the First Amendment is actually about free exercise of religion, not freedom of religion. If I am compelled to be in attendance at your religious practices I'm not free to exercise my own. Quoting the First Amendment incorrectly only distorts the argument.
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TSgt Wepaons Director, Air Battle Manager Instructor
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I can't say that I know exactly what your experiences have been, but I am very comfortable with prayer at functions, even though I don't practice religion. Most chaplains I've seen are careful to say things like "Please join me in prayer if you are willing" It's not forcing anyone to do anything. If people choose not to pray, then they simply observe a moment of silence while those who choose to pray, do. I don't see why anyone should or would be offended by people exercising their faith. Seriously, is it that much of an inconvenience that you might have to wait a minute or two while some people exercise one of the key rights of this country?
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Maj Rob Drury
Maj Rob Drury
8 y
MSgt Jonathan Stump - The military is quite a huge melting pot, so I'm not going to suggest that what you're suggesting hasn't or couldn't happen, but I'd suggest that it would be so rare as to not be worthy of discussion. Military supervisors, by and large, possess extreme levels of integrity and respect for our constitution, laws, regulations, policies, and the welfare of others, particularly within their own ranks. A decision regarding large or public ceremonies usually occurs at a level where such actions could be considered pretty much impossible, and I seriously doubt a commander is going to allow performance ratings to be affected by differences in religious belief.

The fact that you're this bent out of shape over your fellow servicemembers' exercise of their clear constitutional rights is quite telling.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
Maj Rob Drury - It's "allowing" you to pray, but you ignore the "compelling" others to be present while you do so. You do NOT have the right to a captive audience. YOU are the one crapping on the constitutional rights of those who do not want to participate or be present while you stroke each other's.... ummm... egos and self-importance.
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Maj Rob Drury
Maj Rob Drury
8 y
MSgt Lowell Skelton - As a military member, one is something of a "captive audience" in most everything. We give up our rights to autonomy in most every area of our lives. Most ceremonies where public prayer would likely be exercised (retirement ceremonies, etc.) are actually voluntary, so more often than not, your compulsion argument is moot. Otherwise, MSgt Stump's "go along to get along" adage is actually the most appropriate policy to address your concerns. Do you feel the need or the right to protest everything in a military ceremony or meeting that you find boring or not worthy of your participation? If so, every day in the military must be excruciating for you.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
Maj Rob Drury - No, I did not. But there is no excuse for disrespecting troops by ordering them to pray at mandatory events. Go to the chapel on your own damn time for that, and leave us the hell out of it.

Most of my career involved shiftwork, meaning someone had to be on duty 24/7/365. I often volunteered to cover for colleagues to be home with family on their religious holidays. My desires for time off, including when I actually submitted a leave form, were not reciprocated in kind.
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CPT Battalion Air
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After reading some comments below, I will reiterate what I stated in my first comment: the 1st Amendment to the Constitution never made mention of a separation of church and state. That has been a misnomer for decades now and used to ban prayers and public displays of faith. And to what end? No one is rounding up children and forcing them to go to Jesus Camp. The government does tax Protestants and Catholics any differently than Atheists. But a narrative has been formed that apparently there is a threat from the religious Americans in our society (80% of the population by the way).
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SFC PATRIOT Launching Station Enhanced Operator/Maintainer
SFC (Join to see)
8 y
There is a freedom to practice any religion... Where is it stated that you are protected from religion... Free religion does not mean no religion
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
SFC (Join to see) - If you are not free from others imposing their religion on you, then you do not have free exercise. Very simple concept.
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Capt Michael Greene
Capt Michael Greene
8 y
SFC (Join to see) - The Supreme Court and various federal courts have many times acknowledged that, while atheism is not a religion, it is to be treated like a religion in First Amendment analyses. So yes, there is Freedom of Religion for atheists, too. See several cases named at http://atheistsoffloridainc.org/first-amendment-protection-for-atheist-groups/
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SFC PATRIOT Launching Station Enhanced Operator/Maintainer
SFC (Join to see)
8 y
1st amendment allows for free expression of religion...
Does that mean it also grants the prohibition of religion(s)?

Normally a Chaplain at these ceremonies will say a prayer, usually nondenominational to which ever religion (if any) the individuals choose.

But my question: if freedom of religion- free expression of religion- is implicitly stated, do we stretch that to deny practicing religion... To say 'no one can express any religion because the thoughts are different than my own?'
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LTC Hbpc Physician Assistant
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Edited 8 y ago
I voted you down because there are moments when I think public prayer is the right thing to do. Perhaps you have not lost a comrade or attended a ramp ceremony. Perhaps, on this Memorial Day weekend, you may consider how many soldiers (including this one) have been comforted by public spiritual expressions. Religion does not, nor should it, fit into a tiny and unobtrusive box that is so dilute as it unable to offend anyones view of anything. Give it a think, Airman Santy. I appreciate the question, and your view, I just wholeheartedly disagree.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
LTC (Join to see) - And exactly why are we expected to roll over and appease the religionists? If you don't like regulations or the Constitution, which protect the rights of non-believers, perhaps you are the one who should depart.
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LTC Hbpc Physician Assistant
LTC (Join to see)
8 y
MSgt Lowell Skelton - Thanks, but I think I will soldier on despite the random disagreements from the uberliberal, atheist micro-minority. I appreciate your service.
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MSgt Lowell Skelton
MSgt Lowell Skelton
8 y
LTC (Join to see) - If you truly appreciated my service, or that of any other non-believer, you would not be adamant about compelling us to participate in unwilling prayer or religious observance with our mandatory attendance.
I'll reiterate MSgt Jonathan Stump 's question: "Once again, why do Christians get to do what they want, and the other religions have to take a back seat?" Your condescending remark about regulations and traditions utterly failed to address the subject. Regulations place restrictions on overt or coercive religious expression in the name of "good order and discipline". Some past traditions which have proven to be negative or detrimental have been eliminated. Is "getting one's feelings hurt often" your only option for dealing with inequities and discrimination?
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LTC Hbpc Physician Assistant
LTC (Join to see)
8 y
MSgt Lowell Skelton - As you are no longer serving and seem quite out of touch, nor do you seem to have respect for customs and courtesy, I can only assume you fail to see that I am trying to remain gentlemanly as well. First and last, not being to represent all religions doesn't necessitate eliminating all religions. Ecumenic blessings are the compromise you seek, don't hang your head in silence or prayer if you don't want. No one is taking down names of the non-participants. If there is no God, you are not spiritually injured by the prayers of others.
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