Posted on Feb 9, 2014
Should the Military have a limit on Deployments for individuals?
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Now knowing this is what we signed up to do fight our country's wars should there be a limit to how many times a Soldier should deploy? <div><br></div><div>Or maybe something the Behavioral Health providers do saying "hey this soldiers needs to sit this one out"?</div><div><br></div><div>Please add your thoughts.</div>
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Deployment
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Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 30
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1SG Hero,
Warmest Regards, Sandy
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Maybe reasonable limit on number of combat missions?
Something like US Bomber Command in WWII Europe?
Otherwise should this be a command responsibility ???
SGM (Join to see)
There was a creed that mentioned "knowing your Soldiers". I think the important thing is for Leaders to make fair assessment based on what that Soldier feels and mental health experts if needed. Every Soldier is different and you cannot set a limit on something that cant be measured by numbers. We all treat deployments differently, some of our jobs have little to no change when we deploy some of us the reality of death or loss of a loved one changes dramatically. 1LT Annala this should indeed be a command responsibility the health and welfare of our Soldiers directly affect their ability to accomplish missions that we assign them. We risk not only their lives but the rest of their units if we ignore a potential problem.
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SPC Edward Tapper
SFC Byron Evans, exactly! Thank you fpr seeing and understanding the real issue. It is most certainly is a command responsibility to maintain the ability and stability of their unit mission capability status, starting, I believe, with the squad leaders. If the squad leader detects a possible problem with a soldier, he takes that concern to the Platoon Sargent who should observe and engage that soldier with coversation in order to get a first-hand feel for that soldier's physical and mental preparedness ability to support the mission. Report his/her findings to the Platoon Leader and he/she then inform the Company Commander or OIC to make a command decision about a course of action for the soldier in question. Yes, 1LT Annala, it IS a command responsibility to ensure and protect the wellbeing of the soldiers in their command. That's what GOOD leaders do. Again, thank you SFC Evans for being able to see beyond yourself and see the big picture, the wellbeing of the soldiers in your command. Be blessed in all you do.
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SGT Beau Thomas
Deployments are hugely different between the services and even between the components. I did 3 deployments with the Guard and was away from my family for 4.5 years. That's not uncommon in the Guard. I read somewhere that some Air Force guy did 5 deployments, but that was less than a year total time in Iraq.
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I have a number of troops in my unit who are upset that we're NOT deploying. Some have even gone as far as to ETS or request a conditional release into a different branch because of this. If anything we need better force management, not a draft.
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SGT (Join to see)
Spot on Sir, We would still have the same problem just more people with that same problem.
I love deployments personally!
I love deployments personally!
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If a Service Member has deployed at least seven times it is a pretty safe bet that they re-enlisted at least once. So, what's the issue again?
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SPC Edward Tapper
Severe PTSD, Military murders and military/veteran suicides to name a few. Also mass murders on U. S. Army bases. It's not healthy for the human mind after so many deployments and death and carnage.
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CSM (Join to see)
SPC Edward Tapper
I don't have any numbers but I would say that deployments are not the reason a Soldier/Veteran commits suicide. It may play a part in some, but not the main reason in the majority. Other than Fort Hood I cannot recall any mass murders on any military installation. Back in 93 a Soldier shot his 1SG and supply sergeant at Ft Campbell, he had never been in combat. In 1995 a Soldier shot 19 people and killed one at Fort Bragg sniping them during P.T., he had never been to combat. If the draft was started Soldiers would still get PTSD. I understand your frustration but the draft would not solve anything and in my opinion would only make things worse by forcing people to do things against their will.
I don't have any numbers but I would say that deployments are not the reason a Soldier/Veteran commits suicide. It may play a part in some, but not the main reason in the majority. Other than Fort Hood I cannot recall any mass murders on any military installation. Back in 93 a Soldier shot his 1SG and supply sergeant at Ft Campbell, he had never been in combat. In 1995 a Soldier shot 19 people and killed one at Fort Bragg sniping them during P.T., he had never been to combat. If the draft was started Soldiers would still get PTSD. I understand your frustration but the draft would not solve anything and in my opinion would only make things worse by forcing people to do things against their will.
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No.
I think we need to better manage OPTEMPO, but we need not limit or restrict deployments; that is why we (now you) are here. The only limit I would make would be fixed parameters on deployments, and then you would be exempt when you ETS or retire. That said, since 911 we have had two issue that confound this issue.
1. The OPTEMPO for E-1s thru E-6s in my branch, and many branches, is/was off the chart. Soldiers come/came back from deployments at post A and then they would PCS to post B, but when they get to their next duty assignment they are assigned to the next unit out the door... So the units dwell time might be a year, but the individuals could be as little as 90 days.... I think we have fixed this, but for about 5 years, this is how we ran the railroad...
2. Soldiers (mostly Senior Leaders) who all the sudden became non-deployable... But, they could still run marathons or compete in triathlons.... This made the OPTEMPO higher for the rest of us...
I think we need to better manage OPTEMPO, but we need not limit or restrict deployments; that is why we (now you) are here. The only limit I would make would be fixed parameters on deployments, and then you would be exempt when you ETS or retire. That said, since 911 we have had two issue that confound this issue.
1. The OPTEMPO for E-1s thru E-6s in my branch, and many branches, is/was off the chart. Soldiers come/came back from deployments at post A and then they would PCS to post B, but when they get to their next duty assignment they are assigned to the next unit out the door... So the units dwell time might be a year, but the individuals could be as little as 90 days.... I think we have fixed this, but for about 5 years, this is how we ran the railroad...
2. Soldiers (mostly Senior Leaders) who all the sudden became non-deployable... But, they could still run marathons or compete in triathlons.... This made the OPTEMPO higher for the rest of us...
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1SG Haro,
I am currently on my 6th deployment. The individual must decide when it's enough for him or her and or family. Once an individual had enough of deployments, then one should decide to exit the Army. It is important for all of us to realize that regardless of how many times we have been deployed, we must be ready to pack our bags and deploy again if we are called to do so. I do not believe in "sitting this one out" concept, unless there is truly an issue and confirmed by the appropriate agency/personnel.
I am currently on my 6th deployment. The individual must decide when it's enough for him or her and or family. Once an individual had enough of deployments, then one should decide to exit the Army. It is important for all of us to realize that regardless of how many times we have been deployed, we must be ready to pack our bags and deploy again if we are called to do so. I do not believe in "sitting this one out" concept, unless there is truly an issue and confirmed by the appropriate agency/personnel.
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1SG (Join to see)
CW3 Jones,
I concur with you.
Thanks for your dedication to your soldiers and our nation, please thank your family as well for their support to and our fellow warriors serving.
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SP5 Joel O'Brien
Having never deployed I suppose I Don't qualify to contribute anything here. But I will anyhow. What is the logic of calling it quits if you've had your fill of deployments? You have experience and knowledge that many of your brethren don't possess and could benefit from your sharing of it. If you were making the service a career one might think there are new challenges awaiting you. Just my two cents.
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Just let me go on my first one, please.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
Thank you for the kind words, SFC James S. I'm fresh out of up-votes for the day, and I can't seem to tag you.
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You are in some extremely limited company SPC Edward Tapper, that is a limited group of Soldiers that deserve some serious recognition.
If in deployments we are talking combat operations, we must understand that deployments vary in length as well as in kinetic action experienced. For instnaces, lets look at "Big Army" units typical deployment schedules, seven times (since 2001) would mean they deployed for four year long deployments, two surge (extended to 15 months) deployments as well as one nine month deployment....totaling 87 months in combat meaning they would be authorized 14 service (combat) stripes.
for our Special Operations Forces, it is quite possible that many have deployed more than seven times. While many diminish the length of their deployments, these men are absolutely sprinting the entire time they are in theater! Many (most) of their ops will occur at night and often times they will make four or five missions in one night!
If in deployments we are talking combat operations, we must understand that deployments vary in length as well as in kinetic action experienced. For instnaces, lets look at "Big Army" units typical deployment schedules, seven times (since 2001) would mean they deployed for four year long deployments, two surge (extended to 15 months) deployments as well as one nine month deployment....totaling 87 months in combat meaning they would be authorized 14 service (combat) stripes.
for our Special Operations Forces, it is quite possible that many have deployed more than seven times. While many diminish the length of their deployments, these men are absolutely sprinting the entire time they are in theater! Many (most) of their ops will occur at night and often times they will make four or five missions in one night!
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SPC Edward Tapper,
I may be reading into your question, but what I'm seeing having read the whole thread(at this time) is an agenda in search of a question.
I think you've gotten some thoughtful responses.
1st, I don't think you thought through your question.
The issue you appear to be addressing isn't about OPTEMPO but you've conflated it into the problem. The issue isn't about the Draft, but you've also dragged that in, which is problematic in that it also questions the current drawdowns and from the Marine an initiative to intentionally age the force.
The issue appears to be with properly preparing our forces mentally to engage with both the enemy and having prepared ourselves mentally and perhaps (POV) spiritually for the toll of Combat in general and the possibility of taking another's life.
Is enough being done? At this point I think Veterans and currently Serving Members are reaching out to deploying members with resources, but many times those same Troops don't see the value in discussions until AFTER they've earned their own scars.
Are the Institutions doing enough? I'm not current but due to the nature of both institutional change and a culture of what we've done before has always worked, I'd bet they were still behind the curve.
Is any prior preparation going to completely alleviate the issue of PTSD? I think without completely removing people's moral compasses (A COMPLETELY UNDESIREABLE THING) that that outcome is impossible, and may not create the desired effect anyway as PTSD isn't necessarily derived from questions of moral incompatibility questions.
But neither rotating more people thru, or forcing people who didn't ask to serve is going to help the problem in any way.
I may be reading into your question, but what I'm seeing having read the whole thread(at this time) is an agenda in search of a question.
I think you've gotten some thoughtful responses.
1st, I don't think you thought through your question.
The issue you appear to be addressing isn't about OPTEMPO but you've conflated it into the problem. The issue isn't about the Draft, but you've also dragged that in, which is problematic in that it also questions the current drawdowns and from the Marine an initiative to intentionally age the force.
The issue appears to be with properly preparing our forces mentally to engage with both the enemy and having prepared ourselves mentally and perhaps (POV) spiritually for the toll of Combat in general and the possibility of taking another's life.
Is enough being done? At this point I think Veterans and currently Serving Members are reaching out to deploying members with resources, but many times those same Troops don't see the value in discussions until AFTER they've earned their own scars.
Are the Institutions doing enough? I'm not current but due to the nature of both institutional change and a culture of what we've done before has always worked, I'd bet they were still behind the curve.
Is any prior preparation going to completely alleviate the issue of PTSD? I think without completely removing people's moral compasses (A COMPLETELY UNDESIREABLE THING) that that outcome is impossible, and may not create the desired effect anyway as PTSD isn't necessarily derived from questions of moral incompatibility questions.
But neither rotating more people thru, or forcing people who didn't ask to serve is going to help the problem in any way.
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SPC Edward Tapper
Wow! Gunny Strong, you have single-handedly just opened my eyes more than any other response, thus far. Thank you, for helping me to see straighter and clearer the issues I have addressed. In hindsight, I know now that a draft is NOT the solution. As a minister, a veteran, a disabled and medically retired (from civilian local government) due to severe service connected PTSD and COPD and concerned American, I love all my comrades-in-arms. I am all screwed up with only one deployment (1990-'91) and can't help but think that multiple deployments is certainly a contributing factor for so many military killings and suicides at home. Thank you for your insightful input.
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GySgt Joe Strong
Thank you for what readsas both a really nice reply and potentially as snark?
You may notice that I didn't specifically address cumulative PTSD stressors via multiple deployments before, two reasons.
The argument stands on its own, it didn't need me to make it. It's completely obvious to anyone who chooses to see.
And, because I instead cut to the heart of the matter, preparing Troops prior to their first stressor for what to expect.
The preparation is certainly not a panacea, it won't help with TBI
You may notice that I didn't specifically address cumulative PTSD stressors via multiple deployments before, two reasons.
The argument stands on its own, it didn't need me to make it. It's completely obvious to anyone who chooses to see.
And, because I instead cut to the heart of the matter, preparing Troops prior to their first stressor for what to expect.
The preparation is certainly not a panacea, it won't help with TBI
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GySgt Joe Strong
I hate the send button being inside the edit box....
Nor will prior prep help with dealing with the specific matter of the loss of any body part, or any physical after effects of being wounded.
But the simple knowledge that the feelings you have are real, that you aren't crazy or wrong for having them, that people actually care, and that they aren't just mollifying you because they have to or are paid to goes part of the way.
Hearing it in advance is important because afterwards it's just part of the "you have to say it noise" and is much easier to believe is just a smokescreen.
If you haven't yet, and I recommend this all the time but prefer it for folks who haven't gone yet. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has an excellent book called "On Killing", I have no idea if it will help you at all because I don't know you or your specific issues. But it's a great resource, others on this forum recommend it and some of his other books too.
Nor will prior prep help with dealing with the specific matter of the loss of any body part, or any physical after effects of being wounded.
But the simple knowledge that the feelings you have are real, that you aren't crazy or wrong for having them, that people actually care, and that they aren't just mollifying you because they have to or are paid to goes part of the way.
Hearing it in advance is important because afterwards it's just part of the "you have to say it noise" and is much easier to believe is just a smokescreen.
If you haven't yet, and I recommend this all the time but prefer it for folks who haven't gone yet. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has an excellent book called "On Killing", I have no idea if it will help you at all because I don't know you or your specific issues. But it's a great resource, others on this forum recommend it and some of his other books too.
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COL Vincent Stoneking
GySgt Joe Strong excellent and insightful post and follow-ups! Great clarity brought to the issue, especially regarding the "you have to say it noise."
I think an unfortunate side-effect of all of the things we have to say, or sit through, is that it leads to discounting the concept that there could be any value in ANY of it.
Of course, getting anyone to cut it down to the truly critical bits will never happen. (That would be explicitly telling someone that their Ox wasn't really sacred!)
As a side note, one of the benefits of being in a volunteer force is that the individual can decide (within limits, mandatory service obligations, etc) exactly when they are no longer willing to deploy and exit stage left. Yes, it has consequences. But all free choices do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be choices.
I think an unfortunate side-effect of all of the things we have to say, or sit through, is that it leads to discounting the concept that there could be any value in ANY of it.
Of course, getting anyone to cut it down to the truly critical bits will never happen. (That would be explicitly telling someone that their Ox wasn't really sacred!)
As a side note, one of the benefits of being in a volunteer force is that the individual can decide (within limits, mandatory service obligations, etc) exactly when they are no longer willing to deploy and exit stage left. Yes, it has consequences. But all free choices do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be choices.
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It changes based on Service.
Navy Guys deploy ALL THE TIME. 6 on 6 off for 3 years (depending on dock), then shore command, the sea command, etc. Once they hit 3 years at Sea & Chief, a lot do everything in their power to stay deployed.
My first unit was on a 22 month rotation. I did two deployments between 95 & end of 98. I did another 400~ days of "travel" (including overseas) while I was at my next command.
As for the Draft, that's a separate issue from Deployments. The Draft is there in case we need LOTS of troops quickly. Currently, we're able to meet readiness needs based on an all volunteer force. When we aren't, that's when we look at the Draft. It will be AVF > Stop Loss > Reserves > Recall > Draft.
Navy Guys deploy ALL THE TIME. 6 on 6 off for 3 years (depending on dock), then shore command, the sea command, etc. Once they hit 3 years at Sea & Chief, a lot do everything in their power to stay deployed.
My first unit was on a 22 month rotation. I did two deployments between 95 & end of 98. I did another 400~ days of "travel" (including overseas) while I was at my next command.
As for the Draft, that's a separate issue from Deployments. The Draft is there in case we need LOTS of troops quickly. Currently, we're able to meet readiness needs based on an all volunteer force. When we aren't, that's when we look at the Draft. It will be AVF > Stop Loss > Reserves > Recall > Draft.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
True that!
Sitting on a boat in port is one thing .. cruising is another.
Combat deployments are in a whole different bag.
I knew a couple of 2 timers in Vietnam and the other guys gave them wide berth.
I can't imagine what 4, 5, 6 combat tours in sandville must be like.
Sitting on a boat in port is one thing .. cruising is another.
Combat deployments are in a whole different bag.
I knew a couple of 2 timers in Vietnam and the other guys gave them wide berth.
I can't imagine what 4, 5, 6 combat tours in sandville must be like.
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I know plenty of Soldiers that would volunteer to go every other year given the chance. And someone on their 7th rotation has bound to have re-enlisted a few times. If there are people willing to go, then what is the problem? I don't think we need a draft.
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SPC Edward Tapper
Ma'am, the problem is the warped minds that follow them the rest of their lives. After so much of it, they become numb to killing and it is causing major repercussions in their families and communities, post military, eg. (Homicide within their family, community, Crime, Drug Addiction, Alcoholism, Mass Shooters on Military Bases and last but not least astronomical rate of VETERAN SUICIDE and nowhere near enough Mental Health Care within the DoD or the VA.
Ma'am, that is the problem. A military that trains us to kill countless times and a government that turns it's back on you when you leave. Trust me, you'll see when you retire or ETS from the military and you need some help down the road. Try to retire as young as you can so you'll hopefully live long enough to fight the VA for 10-15 years to get the help and benefits they say we've earned.
Ma'am, that is the problem. A military that trains us to kill countless times and a government that turns it's back on you when you leave. Trust me, you'll see when you retire or ETS from the military and you need some help down the road. Try to retire as young as you can so you'll hopefully live long enough to fight the VA for 10-15 years to get the help and benefits they say we've earned.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Then maybe your post should be asking a different question.
I understand that war and death takes its toll on individuals and subsequently family members. Deploying, no matter how many times puts a person at risk. A draft, involving more people, will not reduce the results of war. Maybe you should be asking what the military as a whole should be doing to prevent becoming numb to killing. We have addiction programs, counseling services, and behavior health clinics.....if those programs do not work then we as a military community need to speak out and demand better services.
I understand that war and death takes its toll on individuals and subsequently family members. Deploying, no matter how many times puts a person at risk. A draft, involving more people, will not reduce the results of war. Maybe you should be asking what the military as a whole should be doing to prevent becoming numb to killing. We have addiction programs, counseling services, and behavior health clinics.....if those programs do not work then we as a military community need to speak out and demand better services.
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