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I spent 17 of 20 years on active jump status. Aside from those who served with the 82nd and loved they're status few cared.
The other units I was with cared less. My proposel is this, a tab for those with a minimum of 25 jumps in all conditions with a follow on mission. Combat gear.Just because you are not a jumpmaster with at least a star does not make you irrelevant as what seems the modern case. Does 25 jumps and above not make you a Jump master? Let those with the JMPI training that have the qualification of JMPI have an attachment to their wings or a separate design.
We of modern basic wings may have more experience than some modern Jumpmasters could possibly fathom. BLUF Rangers , Sf and engineers have their tabs, let us have ours.
The other units I was with cared less. My proposel is this, a tab for those with a minimum of 25 jumps in all conditions with a follow on mission. Combat gear.Just because you are not a jumpmaster with at least a star does not make you irrelevant as what seems the modern case. Does 25 jumps and above not make you a Jump master? Let those with the JMPI training that have the qualification of JMPI have an attachment to their wings or a separate design.
We of modern basic wings may have more experience than some modern Jumpmasters could possibly fathom. BLUF Rangers , Sf and engineers have their tabs, let us have ours.
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 20
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Airborne qualified troops already get 'wings'. If you have done more than just a few jumps, and did so many years on status, do you not get "senior parachutist badge" and then a "master parachutist badge"; "mustard stains' for combat jumps? I think that those things should suffice.
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SGT(P) Harry Clyde Jr.
Senior and Master wings are for those who choose to go to Jumpmaster School. Initially Jumpmasters only have basic wings. They have to do x amout of safety, night jumps, combat equipment and primary jumpmaster to qualify for follow on wings. I didnt go through jumpmaster for various reasons. As for the Combat Jump Star (s), that is a rarity last acheived by the 173rd Airborne Brigade into Iraq. Before that Panama. SpecOps may have done some but Im not up on theirs. Anyhow the jump star is a rarity and those who bear one are not all JMs .
As stated in previous posts, it was an idea. Another one I thought about that someone else said could be feasible is possibly type of wings. The German Army for example uses different wings, bronze (which i have), silver and gold for various levels of experience/ jumps and you do not have to be a jumpmaster to receive them.
Other countries use added devices, wing type or color for JMs. Some dont use any signifiers for JMs.
Again just an idea that wont happen.
Thanks for your response.
As stated in previous posts, it was an idea. Another one I thought about that someone else said could be feasible is possibly type of wings. The German Army for example uses different wings, bronze (which i have), silver and gold for various levels of experience/ jumps and you do not have to be a jumpmaster to receive them.
Other countries use added devices, wing type or color for JMs. Some dont use any signifiers for JMs.
Again just an idea that wont happen.
Thanks for your response.
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SFC (Join to see)
SGT(P) Harry Clyde Jr. I like the idea of going from bronze to silver to gold. We do that for so many other awards accoutrements that there is already precedence.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
I vote for Gold wings, a Tab, A maroon cover and parachute pants...let's bring back the 80's.
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SGT(P) Harry Clyde Jr.
Exactly. Recruiters and now instructors for various schools.
Jumpmasters could keep their stars and wreaths. Non JMs could have varied wing colors based off of jumps/experiences.
Unfortunately it wont happen due to heritage for one and even if there was a mass out cry it would be one ear in then out the other just as with the rangers losing their black beret which was wrong in more ways than one. Others like the cold war medal, cords and disk backgrounds for each specialty/MOS, and what will most likely happen to the retirement medal I read about in the Army Times months ago and a few others. All ideas and some were in play for a while but were discontinued or went no further than the design phase.
It is what it is.
Jumpmasters could keep their stars and wreaths. Non JMs could have varied wing colors based off of jumps/experiences.
Unfortunately it wont happen due to heritage for one and even if there was a mass out cry it would be one ear in then out the other just as with the rangers losing their black beret which was wrong in more ways than one. Others like the cold war medal, cords and disk backgrounds for each specialty/MOS, and what will most likely happen to the retirement medal I read about in the Army Times months ago and a few others. All ideas and some were in play for a while but were discontinued or went no further than the design phase.
It is what it is.
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Uh, that's why you jumpers have jump wings, a maroon beret, and an Airborne Tab. Why would you need more?
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Well it seems I started a bit of a firestorm with this.
The votes say no. Very well. To me it was an idea I have played with for years along with the criteria. I also played with a device or type of wings, as suggested as well by SGT Hanner. Germany for instance has separate wings for experience level not necessarily JM.
Some seemed offended by what the question said. If thats the case then you have my utmost apologies. Not my intent to offend anyone. The comments I read were insightful, a little humorous and somewhat humbling in cases. Many good points made.
As for the stupid question vote, I added that to see what would happen. Most dissappointing. I dont believe in stupid questions. The stupidest questions are the ones thought but never asked as with the topic I threw out there. As stated previously, an Idea played with but never asked. Felt this would be the perfect forum for it.
Misguided questions yes but never stupid.
Bottom line is those of us with wings, jumpmaster or not, chose to do so to be different than the bulk of the military. Some for the adventure others just for "flair" or points. Others chose to never jump again after the first five. Those that chose not to get wings, all the more power to you and in some cases you may be the smarter ones. You may be more qualified in many other things and should be proud of your acheivements as well.
With a few exceptions, I stand alone in my Idea that will never happen but I also leave this post with a different view on variations of the idea.
I thank all who voted and/or commented no matter what your opinion, thought etc is/ was.
Thanks again!
The votes say no. Very well. To me it was an idea I have played with for years along with the criteria. I also played with a device or type of wings, as suggested as well by SGT Hanner. Germany for instance has separate wings for experience level not necessarily JM.
Some seemed offended by what the question said. If thats the case then you have my utmost apologies. Not my intent to offend anyone. The comments I read were insightful, a little humorous and somewhat humbling in cases. Many good points made.
As for the stupid question vote, I added that to see what would happen. Most dissappointing. I dont believe in stupid questions. The stupidest questions are the ones thought but never asked as with the topic I threw out there. As stated previously, an Idea played with but never asked. Felt this would be the perfect forum for it.
Misguided questions yes but never stupid.
Bottom line is those of us with wings, jumpmaster or not, chose to do so to be different than the bulk of the military. Some for the adventure others just for "flair" or points. Others chose to never jump again after the first five. Those that chose not to get wings, all the more power to you and in some cases you may be the smarter ones. You may be more qualified in many other things and should be proud of your acheivements as well.
With a few exceptions, I stand alone in my Idea that will never happen but I also leave this post with a different view on variations of the idea.
I thank all who voted and/or commented no matter what your opinion, thought etc is/ was.
Thanks again!
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LTC Stephen C.
Stand up comments, SGT(P) Harry Clyde Jr.; good for you! Here's what I did about my basic jump wings, so maybe this will work for you (some history included).
The first parachutist badge was designed prior to the U.S. official entry into World War II by Captain (later Lieutenant General) William P. Yarborough of the 501st Parachute Battalion. The Parachutist Badge was formally approved on 10 March 1941, and 350 Sterling silver badges made by Bailey, Banks and Biddle were delivered to the 501st Parachute Battalion on 14 March 1941 (narrative from the U.S. Army Quartermaster Foundation).
The U.S. Army started issuing silver filled (front only) jump wings on 11 July 1968, so the jump wings that I received on Fryar DZ on 9 August 1970 were silver filled and not Sterling silver! On 10 February 1988, the Army went to an even less expensive silver plating process!
The photos are the obverse and reverse of a vintage Sterling silver parachutist badge with jewelers' clasp. These jump wings were manufactured sometime after the original BB&B strike in 1941, but still sometime during WWII. I acquired this parachutist badge late in my career and wore it on my Class As and Bs until I retired. It was nice to wear a piece of history!
The first parachutist badge was designed prior to the U.S. official entry into World War II by Captain (later Lieutenant General) William P. Yarborough of the 501st Parachute Battalion. The Parachutist Badge was formally approved on 10 March 1941, and 350 Sterling silver badges made by Bailey, Banks and Biddle were delivered to the 501st Parachute Battalion on 14 March 1941 (narrative from the U.S. Army Quartermaster Foundation).
The U.S. Army started issuing silver filled (front only) jump wings on 11 July 1968, so the jump wings that I received on Fryar DZ on 9 August 1970 were silver filled and not Sterling silver! On 10 February 1988, the Army went to an even less expensive silver plating process!
The photos are the obverse and reverse of a vintage Sterling silver parachutist badge with jewelers' clasp. These jump wings were manufactured sometime after the original BB&B strike in 1941, but still sometime during WWII. I acquired this parachutist badge late in my career and wore it on my Class As and Bs until I retired. It was nice to wear a piece of history!
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SGT(P) Harry Clyde Jr.
As a history lover myself. Thanks for the above post. While stationed with the Airborne School we , The Tower Branch Cheif was also the unit historian. He set up a small museum at Batallion that documented the schools history, uniforms and equipment. He also worked with the BC so that cadre could wear jackets while in the training area that were patched and similar to those worn by Cadre 30 years earlier.
There is also a display case dedicated to the test platoon. It had wine glasses bearing the names of the members. Only 2 were upright since they were alive. The rest were upside down since they were gone now.
I had the honor of meeting Mr Adams once during a ceremony I believe in 98. Along with being a rigger he was also a supply guy. So ther was a generational connection there. The history doesnt show that part though unless I got the wrong man. Being an airborne supply person myself it was a treat. He is sadl6 gone now.
On another note I have one of my father's uniforms from the early 70s. It has the colored 101ABD Patch on the right and colored 82nd Airborne on the left. CIB and white wings. These were on the old tuck in green fatigues. Still starched when he gave them to me about 6 years ago. No maroon berets then. Cap with wings and unit background then.
The tradeoff was one of my cookie monster uniforms from Desert Storm with the self sewn on 82nd Airborne patch. Iwas a gun bunny then.
Lastly while in the 82nd Airborne, I wore my dads French Foragere (SP).
Unfortunately as the use of Airborne Troopers dwindle with the exception of SpecOps, I fear a lot of the history will fade as well. At least those of us who have done it in the past who still have a story to tell, maybe our history will never fade.
There is also a display case dedicated to the test platoon. It had wine glasses bearing the names of the members. Only 2 were upright since they were alive. The rest were upside down since they were gone now.
I had the honor of meeting Mr Adams once during a ceremony I believe in 98. Along with being a rigger he was also a supply guy. So ther was a generational connection there. The history doesnt show that part though unless I got the wrong man. Being an airborne supply person myself it was a treat. He is sadl6 gone now.
On another note I have one of my father's uniforms from the early 70s. It has the colored 101ABD Patch on the right and colored 82nd Airborne on the left. CIB and white wings. These were on the old tuck in green fatigues. Still starched when he gave them to me about 6 years ago. No maroon berets then. Cap with wings and unit background then.
The tradeoff was one of my cookie monster uniforms from Desert Storm with the self sewn on 82nd Airborne patch. Iwas a gun bunny then.
Lastly while in the 82nd Airborne, I wore my dads French Foragere (SP).
Unfortunately as the use of Airborne Troopers dwindle with the exception of SpecOps, I fear a lot of the history will fade as well. At least those of us who have done it in the past who still have a story to tell, maybe our history will never fade.
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LTC Stephen C.
SGT(P) Harry Clyde Jr., I'm proud to say that airborne legend COL Lamar "Bill" Asbury Welch was the Director of the Airborne Department while I was at jump school at Fort Benning in MAR-APR70. He served in both Korea and Vietnam and even had a small part in John Wayne's movie, "The Green Berets".
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I could see having different classifications of the parachutist badge...for example, most SCUBA agencies have "Master Diver" and "Dive Master", the former being an experience level and the latter being a dive leader classification. I wouldn't see anything wrong with a similar classification for Airborne in order to recognize those with a ton of jumps, but without jumpmaster school....but as far as a tab....no. Tabs are a special skill identifier, and the wings already have that covered.
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SGT(P) Harry Clyde Jr.
Valid point. If anything as you said at least possibly a device. The tab could be forgone. Just an idea that I know would never bear fruit.
Thanks
Thanks
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I'm a less is more guy in the first place.
Also as a semirelated topic, I'm commissioning in October as a PA and I'm seriously considering showing up to to my first unit essentially sterile (no skill badges or combat patch) just to see how they react. Thoughts?
Also as a semirelated topic, I'm commissioning in October as a PA and I'm seriously considering showing up to to my first unit essentially sterile (no skill badges or combat patch) just to see how they react. Thoughts?
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SFC (Join to see)
I think that showing up sterile is a good way to gauge Soldier response to you. Many troops look for those things first before equating them to a "voice of experience". Something that many younger troops believe that you don't have if you haven't been deployed etc.
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The Army needs more Tabs like the Navy needs more Warfare devices. Do you need a Tab to say you have knowledge? Let your actions speak for your knowledge because even if you have a tab I'am sure people will look down on you for some reason or another. One thing that i think makes a great leader is not just having the knowledge but also knowing you can learn from the guy below you. So if someone is going to look town on you because you are not a jump master that is their failure as a leader not yours.
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I think the jump wings are the way to do this. More tabs just make a uniform look tacky. Leave the tabs for the highly specialized training and keep the jump wings and the air assault badge as they are.
Now changing the look of the badges depending on number of jumps, type of jump (combat or training) would be an idea worth maybe looking at. But those that have earned the Ranger tab, SF tab and other elite tabs go through a lot more hell during training than a service member does for air assault or airborne training. With that said, I think rewarding them with the skill badge is perfect for the training received.
Now changing the look of the badges depending on number of jumps, type of jump (combat or training) would be an idea worth maybe looking at. But those that have earned the Ranger tab, SF tab and other elite tabs go through a lot more hell during training than a service member does for air assault or airborne training. With that said, I think rewarding them with the skill badge is perfect for the training received.
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Don't you already get the recognition with a special skills badge? I wore a paratroopers badge that told the world I was stupid enough to jump out of planes. I never felt the need for a special tab. And it would just be another thing that had to be sewn on your uniform and be done wrong.
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In light that 101 lost their jump status at the beginning of the year I would have to vote for a tab.I think parachutists are in danger of becoming obsolete.
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LTC (Join to see)
The 101st lost their status long ago; the Division's Pathfinders just recently lost their status.
As for obsolescence, no combat delivery method or forcible entry system has yet replaced the destruction and chaos that come with an airborne assault.
As for obsolescence, no combat delivery method or forcible entry system has yet replaced the destruction and chaos that come with an airborne assault.
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