Posted on Feb 15, 2015
MAJ Signal Officer
13.6K
52
61
3
3
0
One minimum that all Soldiers must meet. You can have a sliding scale if you want and an additional MOS or duty specific test as well.
Avatar feed
Responses: 22
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
SFC Processing Nco
1
1
0
I would like to see something more rigorous for combat arms. At a minimum amp up and enforce the army ruck standard for all. I've been in some situations where out of shape "enablers" could have gotten us pretty jacked up (thank you A-10s for saving my a**). I think the army as a whole needs it kicked up a notch and focus on the important things like humping weight and IMT.
(1)
Comment
(0)
SFC Michael Jackson, MBA
SFC Michael Jackson, MBA
>1 y
In the 18th Airborne Corps, a 20K ruck march and a four mile run was an organizational requirement. Its wasn't difficult to add the preparation and testing to the PT program.
(1)
Reply
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
I agree in terms of having the one minimum for everyone in the Army and then you can add to based on the unit or the duty. I have a similar example when I was enlisted in Civil Affairs. We all had to score at least 70 in each event and had an annual ruck requirement. I like the idea of one minimum and adding to it when required
(1)
Reply
(0)
SFC Processing Nco
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
The only issue is enforcing add-ons. I would like to see 70% just like CA and ranger for combat arms. And I have no issue with the army standard of 12 miles in 4 hours except for how light the load is. 12 in 4 is attainable by anyone in decent shape regardless of gender without having to run half of it.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
SSG Chamberlain. You enforce it by being the minimum allowed to serve in that unit or a particular duty. If you meet the Army minimum then you can still serve but not in that unit or duty
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Christopher Perry
0
0
0
Negative, I am no longer 18 years old. I openly admit that 48 years on this Earth and 13 years in the Army has taken its toll on my body.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
PO1 Dustin Adams
0
0
0
A gender neutral standard with a sliding scale based on age.

Why should the physical standards be different when the pay is the same per billet, grade, and time in service?

I think with the transition of women into combat roles including special operations that the physical standards should be the same. Equality is not a one way street.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Training Developer
0
0
0
Females should be required to do more sit-ups
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Tank Commander
0
0
0
Change the run based off of height... Just not fair for someone at 5'7 have to run the same as someone at 6'7.... Do you understand how many steps I make with these short legs...j/k
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Cpl Jeff N.
0
0
0
It isn't really one standard if there is a sliding scale for age and gender variation is it?

If you created on minimum are you going to up everyone to the current men's score or take everyone down to the women's?

If you take everyone down, the standard is gone. If you take everyone up, then some will fail and cry foul.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Cpl Jeff N.
Cpl Jeff N.
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see). If you have one minimum for service in the Army are you reducing the male requirement or increasing the female requirement for the minimum. Why would it be fair to hold some jobs to higher standards than others? Wouldn't this create an multi-tiered Army. Would all get promoted equally with lower standards?

What should be happening is a higher standard put in place to help guide reduction in force that will be occurring. Weed out the folks that just cannot or will not perform first, keep the highest performers in the ranks.

I recognize the Army has lots of unusual MOS's the Marines do not have. Perhaps it is time to look at those moving out of the military and to a GS role and get them off the Army's books.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
No more multi tierd then it already is. We have jobs, duites and units that already impose higher standards but we can also assume that a x-ray tech in a hospital does not have to be as physically capable as an Infantry Soldier. I would use the APFT as a pure Pass or Fail as it already is on promotion boards, so no change there at the big Army level. Its a tough problem to fix and I am just discussing it out loud because I am really morally and ethically conflicted with using APFT scores as a means to create an OML or even worse chaptering someone out for failing when they would have passed if using the Soldier standing next to them's scale. Thats the concern I have and why I brought it up for discussion
(0)
Reply
(0)
Cpl Jeff N.
Cpl Jeff N.
>1 y
Roger that Major. You have some unique issues in the Army due to the range of MOS's in play. I am sure a group of savvy officers and NCO's could figure out a solid approach.
(0)
Reply
(0)
PO1 Dustin Adams
PO1 Dustin Adams
>1 y
Maj Clough your example of duty specific standards may work in the Army but it wouldn't work for the Navy & Marine Corps. With the way the Navy trains its Corpsman that x-ray tech may very well find themselves deployed with an infantry unit (Marine Corps or Army). But I guess that's why each service has its own standards.
I agree it is a complicated issue with no simple solution.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Senior Signal Oc
0
0
0
The idea of a single PT regardless of gender is a little crazy and this is why they cancelled the attempt before. Either you are going to challenge the males and fail 80% of the females or not push the males to their potential. To say males and females have the same potential for strength and endurance is to ignore science.
As for the sliding scale I think the gradually increasing scale until the mid 30s does make sense as that is most people start breaking down after years of service.
finally I believe you need a standard PT test and if you want to add a combat arms branch specific PT test that can be another disqualifier for some. For most MOS' it just doesn't pass the common sense test.
(0)
Comment
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
I am fine with the slide scale. I know the challenges as well but if we have a standard then I would like to see at least one minimum. Or don't use it as a metric for measuring performance if we are all graded on separate scales, because its already unequal and therefore an inaccurate measurement for comparison
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Vet Technician
0
0
0
The highest minimum male push-up raw score is 42 for 60 points at 17-21 age bracket. That is Score of 100 for the same female bracket.

I don't see how this can be equalized. In other words, ONLY females that score 100 on the push-up event would be able to pass at male standards.
(0)
Comment
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
Your right and the same could be said for older males. The minimum would be lower, similar to the pace for a run being at the pace of a slower running Soldier. It would require some thought and testing but if we want true equality and fairness where we are judging all the same then we should do it. Or don't use the APFT score for promotions or to rank when rating subordinates, because the score does not provide an accurate picture of capability
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG Vet Technician
1SG (Join to see)
>1 y
That is my concern Sir. A normalized fitness standard should not be used for rating or promotion purposes, but only to establish that a soldier has at least the minimum level of fitness required to perform in the military
(1)
Reply
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
Roger. But if you want to still create physical competition within your unit I would even recommend still doing that.. But using the APFT to do that just is not a valid way in terms of equality and fairness. Create another competition and maybe even make it fun if you can
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
0
0
0
I like the "Normalized" Test that the Marine Corps does.

There are 3 specific tests you must pass. An Upper Body with a minimum score (Pull Ups for Males, Dead Arm Hang for women), Core Test (Crunches), and a Run.

There are deviations in scoring between the testing between sexes, because men & women are different. It is unreasonable to expect women to do pull ups, because that is not a good measure of women's upper body fitness. It is unreasonable to expect the same time on the run from women, because women "as a group" are not as fast as men.

The minimum for each test remains the same regardless of age, however the TOTAL test score is higher based on age. The younger you are, the more Additional points you must get to pass (whether it from run, situps, or upper body test).

Now, as for MOS specific tests. Here is my problem with them.

Let's say you are a Infantryman, and have a required score higher than an Intel Analyst. I as an Intel Analyst went to a Infantry BN. What score do I have to get? My Platoon (S2/Scout Snipers) consisted of Infantry & Intel, and a Corpsman. The S3 down the hall from me had Infantry and Administration in it. What score would they maintain? What about communicators? The complexities, just get way out of hand way too quickly.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Cpl Jeff N.
Cpl Jeff N.
>1 y
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS . There is also the combat fitness test which came into play after I left the service. My son who was on active duty for 4 years and is now in the reserves does that as part of the overall fitness test. I don't know all of the requirements of that test.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
>1 y
Cpl Jeff N. I'm not familiar enough to speak on it, and from my understanding it's a "separate" test from the "physical fitness" test, although part of the same broad grouping.

We've been throwing the word "standards" so much recently we've forgotten that these tests are about measuring fitness. "If" the tests are a good measure of fitness, then they are good tests. But if the standard of the test is either so low or high that it doesn't actually measure fitness (combat or physical), then we shouldn't use that test.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Leonard Johnson
0
0
0
oh yes of course....I'm like this.....I served over 25 years just retired (medically)...I had Cervical spine surgery, I have a coming up surgery on my right shoulder, and 2 more on L arm and lower back as soon as the 1st surgery heals up...
There is no way I can deploy....as much as I want to go over and give isis a good ol fasion American ass whooping. Lets face it, no way I could even thing about passing a PT test...I'm on a cain for the rest of my life.
I don't think anyone could blame the army for telling me to hang my boots up out to pasture....but PT is what helps physically and mental. If I can't even walk a PT test...ISIS would look at me like I was crazier than a football bat for being there.
It is our main and individual responsibility to stand ready to deploy, engage and destroy the enemies of the USA
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT(P) Unit Supply Specialist
0
0
0
I had an APFT right before turning 32 which I pass with flying colors, after turning 32 my 2 miles run time went up for more than 30 secs. I wonder what difference could make 1 year of age. This next APFT I have to do my 2 miles run in less than 17:42, that's a joke... MAJ (Join to see)
(0)
Comment
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
Agreed, although all of us have our strenghths and weaknesses and I do not place a large portion of my evaluation on anyone based on their PT score. It's important and you should do your best and try and improve but your overall performance is what is really important. I am 39 now by the way. If we do one minimum it will be slower then 18 minutes I think. Or we will lose 20% of the force probably
(1)
Reply
(0)
SGT(P) Unit Supply Specialist
SGT(P) (Join to see)
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see) when I said that my 2 miles run went up for more than 30 secs I meant the time that I had to do and not the time that I actually did.
The Marines ask for less than 20% of body fat just to join, for my age the Army ask less than 28%, that's another joke. 28% body fat is obese in any scale.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC A.M. Drake
SFC A.M. Drake
>1 y
I was running my 2 miles under 1600....all the way until I turned 44....after that back surgery....all I can say is protect your most valuable asset? Your body...because you have your whole life to live after you get out!
(1)
Reply
(0)
1SG Michael Blount
1SG Michael Blount
>1 y
@PFC Antonio Camacho Ortiz - It's an inescapable fact that as you age, you slow down. It happens.  However, you've discovered a "flaw" in the APFT tables.  As you age, your best chance of getting a max score is the first year you move into a new age bracket.  HOWEVER, that holds only but for so long.  If you're trying to max the run, you're looking at 16:30 or thereabouts.  Pushups and situps stabilize around the 50-60 range, but that run doesn't drop as much as you might think.  go for the 300 while you can.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
0
0
0
All for one, one for all, as it was, as it should be.
(0)
Comment
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
I spent 3 days in Budapest in 1996 on a pass from Bosnia. Was a PFC back then but had a good time
(2)
Reply
(0)
SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
>1 y
MAJ (Join to see) - be careful, it grown on you quickly, next thing you know you have a wife and children! lol Seriously, I love it in Budapest, I work in other countries during the week so I get the change up, making Budapest a true pleasure each time. Look me up should you return, there are a few of us in Budapest!
(0)
Reply
(0)
MAJ Signal Officer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
Will do, I stayed at the Ramada I believe on Margaret Island and the wife and kid are here already. lol
(1)
Reply
(0)
SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
>1 y
All are welcome!
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.