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Should Veteran’s Organizations Merge?
With 0.5 percent of American’s serving in the military that leaves only about 1.6 million people who have served that are alive today. The three big Veteran’s organizations which come to mind, at least in my area in the NE US are the American Legion, the Marine Corps League, and the Veterans’ of Foreign War. Each has their own membership requirements with the Legion seeming to be the organization that is most inclusive of all vets in the American Legion. The common thread that all veterans organizations share is declining membership and wondering why so many young vets are not joining.
While I don’t have an answer for that other than the possibility that many young vets see the various organizations as retirement homes where old Vietnam and WWII vets sit around, drink cheap beer and talk about their glory days. One issue I see is that maybe there is just too many organiztions fighting for too few vets today. While each organization has it’s own focus based on membership maybe it’s time to just say a vet is a vet and we are all getting a raw deal these days from the VA and from many others too. I think that combining the organizations is a sure way to ensure that any of these organizations continue to offer the services they do to veterans and to the communities they reside in.
With 0.5 percent of American’s serving in the military that leaves only about 1.6 million people who have served that are alive today. The three big Veteran’s organizations which come to mind, at least in my area in the NE US are the American Legion, the Marine Corps League, and the Veterans’ of Foreign War. Each has their own membership requirements with the Legion seeming to be the organization that is most inclusive of all vets in the American Legion. The common thread that all veterans organizations share is declining membership and wondering why so many young vets are not joining.
While I don’t have an answer for that other than the possibility that many young vets see the various organizations as retirement homes where old Vietnam and WWII vets sit around, drink cheap beer and talk about their glory days. One issue I see is that maybe there is just too many organiztions fighting for too few vets today. While each organization has it’s own focus based on membership maybe it’s time to just say a vet is a vet and we are all getting a raw deal these days from the VA and from many others too. I think that combining the organizations is a sure way to ensure that any of these organizations continue to offer the services they do to veterans and to the communities they reside in.
Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW)
The American Legion
IAVA
DAV
Posted >1 y ago
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No I don't think they should merge. We have more clout with Congress when there are five or six guys siting at the table saying the same thing from different angles then if we just sent one person. Each organization has it's own place at the table. My vets are members of several organizations especially retired vets. It's just like government. The smaller and more local it is, the more responsive it is to the needs of it's citizens/members. Do you want one giant organization that doesn't know you to to make decisions for you. Even though we are all vets we all have different experiences withing our respective branches. A sailor may not know how a soldier or an airman feels about a situation because they don't do the same jobs. Why should we have one mega organization represent us.
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Nicci Eisenhauer
Interesting viewpoint, but 501c3 not-for-profit entities cannot lobby by law. Hence you cannot walk into Congress en masse and get attention and unless you have intensely major hookup... like a VERY expensive lobbying firm (each of whose employees must have a license), your viewpoint is a valid viewpoint with no legal weight or capacity whatsoever... meaning: via your model, you have zero power. And since it costs MEGA money to either BE a lobbying power OR hire one, it's CRUCIAL for Veterans to not only understand what lobbying actually IS, how it is legally DONE, or do not complain when super PACs and corporations (including large defense contractors' lobbyists) wipe the floor with Veterans' intetests (including their employees who are Veterans).
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SGT Craig Northacker
Actually, there are allowances for lobbying within the law - but the amounts are strictly controlled. That was before the recent law change that now allows churches to fund political purpose groups.
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SGT Craig Northacker
There is also a distinct difference between lobbying and education. Also, people can lie on their returns. Or give shaded information to the accountants preparing them.
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No way under any circumstances should they merge, first there are no beer drinking story telling organizations I know of, and I belong to two, VFW and Marine Corps League, we have completely different stances on about everything. I have been in the VFW for a number of years, have over 500 member. to this day I doubt I know 50 vets. and I am the senior vice commander. where as been in the MCL 6 years and from day one I felt like family . and had personal contact with everyone. We work at a completely different way to raise money for charity. I have had marines in the VFW say that the MCL was to gung ho for them, and I disagree with you on there being to few vets, there are thousands of vets to pull from if the organizations would just seek them out and offer them a place they feel comfortable in .you can't just have a vet sign a form to become a member , you have to make sure he is the focal point of your organization. And make that vet feel he is part of something good. and statements like you made even though in a satire way about old age homes and beer drinking and story telling does more damage then good in recruiting vets. ( just a side note, after 8 years in the VFW I have yet to hear a combat story from any vet. Our job to recruiting vets is to welcome them as a vet and let them know they are part of something good. good for them and good for their community.
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Nicci Eisenhauer
Sgt Frank Rinchich Sir, your service in Veterans support is extremely appreciated and valuable. Your knowledge and experience are flat out INVALUABLE. Have you written any articles on RP or elsewhere about lobbying? I wish more people understood what lobbying is all about and what the VSOs are for and why they should be involved. It's very concerning for the future. Do you have thoughts as to whom is doing the best recruiting and retention and which of the non-branch-specific organizations will survive?
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The VFW, American Legion and DAV all have charters granted by Congress. It took months and even years to be recognized as non-profit veteran focused groups. They each have there purpose and direct their energies in accordance with their charters. Each organization brings in millions of dollars each year to take care of veterans and their families. BTW your numbers are wrong.bthere are currently around 4 million vets that are out there.
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SFC John Lee Washington
SFC Wade W. - Please understand that this observation or at least the thought is; we need to consider consolidation of resources and collaboration for the success of these organizations future endeavors. SFC Wade Williams their is always a better use of resources and it is necessary for efficiency in service to our MILITARY more efficiently.
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SFC Wade W.
SFC John Lee Washington I am a Life Member of the VFW, Annual Member of the American Legion, Honorary Life Member and Charter Member of the American Legion Riders, Annual Member of the Sons of the American Legion and a Life Member of the Disabled American Veterans. My family members are members of several organizations also. I do understand what your premise is but I also know the difficulty in starting these types of organizations. In my cities and communities we are working hard at getting our local VSO's to work together and it is working. As veterans, especially the younger Vets, we need to join and become active in the established VSO's and stop whining about the old boys clubs. Work from the inside to make the VSO's work for you.
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Nicci Eisenhauer
SFC Wade W. Not to mention that 501c3 nonprofits CANNOT lobby and the Congressional charters of which you speak hold more power than sheer sizecas a result. You could have 10 million members and be a 501c3 and have to HIRE a lobbying firm. The lobbying entities are 501c4s and our friends who are arguing otherwise haven't learned what lobbying is and don't know VA law and that all generations of Veterans do not get equal benefits and often lobby against each other. It's lack of knowledge and awareness and the lobbying bodies are NOT good at articulating what they do.
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Nicci Eisenhauer
SFC Wade W. It would be enormously helpful if someone would explain to the Veterans and active, reserve and Guard components what the VARIED VSOs do that differentiates them from each other. It doesn't make a lot of sense to these folks why there are so many, they don't understand lobbying law, Congressional charters, 501c3 vs 501c4 va 501c19 or local chapters vs national lobbying entities or VA law and varying benefits based on generation, conflicts and even hot zones. This is a whole thesis paper topic.
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Veteran Organizations are only as effective as their leadership. Like all organizations. They need to recruit, advertise and make a difference. They need to be flexible and current. Brick and mortar is expensive: use the local meeting houses and save those dollars to make highly visible differences in the lives of Vets in that community. If the the old farts, the homeless and the disabled are taken care of, move on to other community needs. Volunteer-even a couple hours a week, properly managed, can make a huge difference in rural areas and to urban youth. Team Rubicon is made up of young, fit, Vets who help in disasters. Link up with the county EMS folks and take an active role in drills. Each of the Veterans organizations has a niche: the legion is for all honorable vets, VFW is for those who have seen the elephant (even if only a picture of one), DAV serves the wounded. Merging would less serve those with special concerns. They should cooperate and coordinate but that is more leadership. If they were more ably lead, they would flourish. They would be seen. They would make a difference. Again.
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Nicci Eisenhauer
This is a very old thread. I'm curious, since you've written the reply, have you learned lobbying law? Has clarity been articulated to you from any organization that Team Rubicon is not now, never was, and never can become a veterans service organization? Has nonprofit law been clarified?
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Being a member of the Legion...I don't think the sheer "administrivia" involved would make this a feasible/effective decision. The Legion's standard is pretty broad...I can't imagine many who would not "qualify", so long as they have a DD214 in hand. Here are the current periods of eligible service:
World War I: April 6, 1917 and November 11, 1918
World War II: December 7, 1941 and December 31, 1946
Korean War: June 25, 1950 and January 31, 1955
Vietnam War: February 28, 1961 and May 7, 1975
Lebanon/Grenada: August 24, 1982 and July 31, 1984
Operation Just Cause - Panama: December 20, 1989 and January 31, 1990
*Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm: August 2, 1990 until the date of the end of hostilities as determined by the government of the United States
*Because eligibility dates remain open, all members of the US Armed Forces are eligible to join The American Legion at this time.
The very small window of "ineligibility" seems to be confined only to the less than four years between WWII and Korea (and let's be honest, those guys would be pretty aged right now), the six years between Korea and Vietnam, the less than five years between Grenada and Panama, and the winter and spring of 1990. Even then, I'd be willing to bet there are Service Officers at Posts who find ways around any "technicality".
Everyone has different experiences...but I've never experienced the Legion to be a "Vets Only Bar". However, neither are these organizations official arms of the VA.
World War I: April 6, 1917 and November 11, 1918
World War II: December 7, 1941 and December 31, 1946
Korean War: June 25, 1950 and January 31, 1955
Vietnam War: February 28, 1961 and May 7, 1975
Lebanon/Grenada: August 24, 1982 and July 31, 1984
Operation Just Cause - Panama: December 20, 1989 and January 31, 1990
*Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm: August 2, 1990 until the date of the end of hostilities as determined by the government of the United States
*Because eligibility dates remain open, all members of the US Armed Forces are eligible to join The American Legion at this time.
The very small window of "ineligibility" seems to be confined only to the less than four years between WWII and Korea (and let's be honest, those guys would be pretty aged right now), the six years between Korea and Vietnam, the less than five years between Grenada and Panama, and the winter and spring of 1990. Even then, I'd be willing to bet there are Service Officers at Posts who find ways around any "technicality".
Everyone has different experiences...but I've never experienced the Legion to be a "Vets Only Bar". However, neither are these organizations official arms of the VA.
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Nicci Eisenhauer
The "bar" is a 501c3 and is not even the same company as the "bar" up the block that is the same VSO by "name". They have their own books, their own leaderships, their own legal culpability, and they are affiliated with the 501c4 that lobbies in their name and FOR the stated charter according to the bylaws and articles of incorporation of the 501c4 entity. No one has explained that on this three year old thread yet. Doesn't anyone know it?
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Having been a professional service officer on the national level for one of the self-proclaimed “leaders” in the field of Veteran’s Advocacy for about 20 years and having seen the Veterans system from both inside and outside the old way of doing business is dead! That old way includes the Veteran Service Organizations (VSO’s); they, singly each and every one of them, have served their purpose that is not to say that there is not a place for them. For example The American Legion (ALG), Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW), Disabled American Veterans (DAV) [the REAL BIG THREE VSO’s] and then Paralyzed Veterans of America, Military order of the Purple Heart, Vietnam Veterans of America and I could continue to go on and on. All of these old stalwart organizations are MEMBERSHIP driven and thus must, even though they have a 501 (c) protection , realize a profit to function and pay staff such as service officers and secretaries as well as directors, lobbyists/advocates and attorneys don’t let the bottom line on paper fool you the donations they receive and the other items of value (such as property as in land, houses, cars, etc.) are a profit but since they have no stock holders to pay a dividend to it supposedly goes to services. The big question is how much really goes to services as opposed to salaries.
But, returning to the real question at hand: Should the Veterans Service Organizations Merge? I believe that in today’s reality the VSO’s are going to have to merge in order to not only protect themselves; but, to service their clients, the Veterans, and fulfil the Congressional Charter that they so passionately claim makes them different from any other Veterans Representative/Advocate. Also, since Private Agents and REAL Attorneys have been authorized by LAW (since 2006) to represent Veterans before not only the Board of Veterans Appeals (BVA) but the Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (CAVC) the old stalwarts VSO’s must now truly hold themselves to a higher standard; because, one does not need to seek the advise of one of the old “VSO’s” and become a member one need merely find an attorney or Private Agent or even one of the New VSO’s that do not require or even have a need for membership (some even state you paid for your membership with your service to this country!
So the bottom line is they must unite or perish!
But, returning to the real question at hand: Should the Veterans Service Organizations Merge? I believe that in today’s reality the VSO’s are going to have to merge in order to not only protect themselves; but, to service their clients, the Veterans, and fulfil the Congressional Charter that they so passionately claim makes them different from any other Veterans Representative/Advocate. Also, since Private Agents and REAL Attorneys have been authorized by LAW (since 2006) to represent Veterans before not only the Board of Veterans Appeals (BVA) but the Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims (CAVC) the old stalwarts VSO’s must now truly hold themselves to a higher standard; because, one does not need to seek the advise of one of the old “VSO’s” and become a member one need merely find an attorney or Private Agent or even one of the New VSO’s that do not require or even have a need for membership (some even state you paid for your membership with your service to this country!
So the bottom line is they must unite or perish!
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Nicci Eisenhauer
To some degree, Sir. But their charters are messed up and unique from each other in some cases, created by distinct interests in others, and, as you know (or should) if you were an NSO or VSO for one of the big ones, not all Veterans are created equal in the eyes of the VA. These organizations often lobby against each other for both valid and invalid reasons and sometimes lobby together. However, until the GOVERNMENT creates Veterans equally (which means scrapping the law and starting over... which would be easier AND mord sensible than combining the VSOs) all we can do is educate the younger set, recruit them onto the most inculsive VSO with the broadest LEGAL CHARTER because neither can one lobby legally against its articles of incorporation or its Congressional charter or lobby if it is a 501c3, neither can all interests of Veterans be satisfied by one organization. That said, we can only hope that the obsolete ones will die on the vine. Here's the thing: Post 9/11, fewer than 5300 combat-related amputations have occurred out of over 3 million deployments of more than 2.6 million personnel. That means that while more than half a million clock PTSD, the percentage of amputations is something less than .000086% (and that is real math with a calculator). Now, please tell me how a VSO of 2 million Veterans is going to advocate for less than 6,000 people? Where will Paralyzed Veterans of America go? Who will do the job? And who is goimg to point out that it is not cool to use the perennial images of amputees to garner donations when that is not the picture of disability today?
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I think there's closer to 20 million veterans alive today, which is about 6.5% of the total us population. I think the more organizations, the better. Perhaps there could be some coordination among their leadership's, but each organization focuses on a different facet of veteran's needs, even if only slightly varied. And I'm not sure combining agencies will solve the problem you raise (cost/activities/benefits).
http://www.va.gov/vetdata/Quick_Facts.asp
http://www.va.gov/vetdata/Quick_Facts.asp
Quick Facts - NATIONAL CENTER FOR VETERANS ANALYSIS AND STATISTICS
Veteran related quick facts
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PFC Sean White
Sir. More is not always better. There are tons of resources available out there to the transitioning veteran, but a lot of time that vet will never had heard of them, or realize that they are there in the first place. The various VSO and CVSO's I've met with have all pretty much said the same thing, that outreach is their biggest challenge. I think in order to meet that challenge, organizations must have better cohesion and collaborative efforts taking place in the communities they reside. In fact there are a lot of non-profit veteran organizations out there that do the exact same thing as others. In not all instances will merging together be possible, but I think more often than not merging two organizations into a strong one, is better than two weak organizations that don't reach many vets.
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Sgt Albert Duran
I am a member of Gathering of Eagles, as they are active in the community by participating in parades, put on a STEM Symposium, with the U of H, Rice University, Houston Community College, and the Houston Independent School District to get 500, kids to have an outlook of becoming more than just a Game Wizard or drug dealer. I am also a member of the American GI Forum, with 44, chapters in Texas, and now with 21,767, connections on LinkedIn.com, I have to figure out how to get them all involved.
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I would probably be worthwhile to see if the various organizations would be willing to hold a high-level conference on the subject. Merging the organizations would be difficult given the fact that there would be winners and losers in such a move, e.g., staffs, budgets, traditions, culture, etc. Unless the "handwriting on the wall" is apparent, most organizations would resist such a move. Budgets and membership losses will probably drive any ultimate decisions. Good leadership in such a move is vital. Those in favor would have to be highly respected by almost everyone.
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Nicci Eisenhauer
Not to mention laws. I'm dying to know when someone on this three year old thread explained the actual LAWS of the subject.
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