Posted on Dec 2, 2014
Should Veterans receive special treatment in Court after committing a crime?
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In most states, the Court is recognizing Veterans that have committed a crime and offering a different type of program to them. (In line with the probation that they may already be granted). How do the masses feel about it?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 195
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I believe that question should be left up to the judge. If there is a history of mental health problems linked to military service, then I don't think it's a bad idea. Proving the link is the difficult part. I pose a question to you and the group. Should military members receive harsher punishment then their civilian counterparts? Ie UCMJ court martial. I've witnessed soldiers receive 2-3 times the prison time a civilian would have received for the same offense. Not only would they serve time for a first offense with no previous criminal record, they lose their career and on top of that are given a disonorable discharge. Where is the justice in that? I know many will reply with military is held to a higher standard. That is a cop out answer. People make mistakes in life. Should it be a mistake they live with their whole life because they made the decision to serve their country? When you really reflect on it, a travesty is occurring. An issue I think the general public is blind to.
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TSgt Jackie Jones
I believe the "harsher" punishments in the military for those that fall under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ a are much harsher for two reasons: One-the cop out answer of 'we are held to a higher standard'. We are trained and are supposed to hold a higher level of discipline. I have not seen anyone unjustly court martialed. I'm sure it happens but the ones I have seen first hand are for- setting an occupied dormitory on fire, selling drugs (extant), rape, a And AWOL. None of these are "mistakes". They are not "bad decisions". TWO: the consequences being higher serve as a deterrent. If one relieves a simple hand slap for DUIS, they will continue to do it. If drugs were a simple reprimand, troops may be more inclined to abuse or experiment.
What is the crime rate in Saudi Arabia? Super low because the punishment is harsh. I'm not saying lets go to that extreme and death penalty is not the answer for all, but there's a reason it works.
Per capita, the criminal behavior in the service is probably less. But once a military member leaves the military, they fall into the civilian laws where they live.
In California, all but sales, cultivation, manufacture, and transportation of drugs is now a misdemeanor! Why not use heroin? It's just a misdemeanor now.
What is the crime rate in Saudi Arabia? Super low because the punishment is harsh. I'm not saying lets go to that extreme and death penalty is not the answer for all, but there's a reason it works.
Per capita, the criminal behavior in the service is probably less. But once a military member leaves the military, they fall into the civilian laws where they live.
In California, all but sales, cultivation, manufacture, and transportation of drugs is now a misdemeanor! Why not use heroin? It's just a misdemeanor now.
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I would say yes, but only as a way of maybe having a separate Veterans Court. Thus allowing them to work off the remainder of what's leftover from sentences. That said, major crimes such as murder, different feeling towards that.
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Once upon a time veterans came home and they were well regarded, given good jobs and treated appropriate to their contribution to the country. This isn't the case now.
Veterans can suffer from issues that were caused as a consequence of their service to their country, and this might lead to an issue with the law, such as an altercation where the veteran is threatened and subsequently acts according to his military training, especially Marines. I want to immediately clarify that I am not discriminating against anyone who served in the other branches. The difference with Marines is what? First and foremost, everyone who has been a Marine is trained first and foremost with infantry skills. In the other services, this training may less depending on their MOS. A cook might have mild training, for example, or a Navy engineer's mate might not have the same extent of combat training. But every Marine gets this first and foremost. I acknowledge there are other divisions of the branches which then further develop these skills, such as Special Forces and Seals. But you guys know what I mean. It's difficult. You are trained to do a certain THING to those who oppose you, and the civilians sometimes don't respect this. You are never going to be the same as them: they shouldn't screw with us They ought to know better. But they don't. And they push you and mess with you, and they don't have a clue what they are messing with. These skills we have as a consequence of our military service ought to be considered, not that we are a detriment to society, but that we have done something FOR the country and that is forever.
So yes, veteran status should be considered in the eyes of the law. If an off-duty police officer receives consideration in a court of law, then so likewise should those who have served in the military, because we are NOT civilians, and never again will be.
Veterans can suffer from issues that were caused as a consequence of their service to their country, and this might lead to an issue with the law, such as an altercation where the veteran is threatened and subsequently acts according to his military training, especially Marines. I want to immediately clarify that I am not discriminating against anyone who served in the other branches. The difference with Marines is what? First and foremost, everyone who has been a Marine is trained first and foremost with infantry skills. In the other services, this training may less depending on their MOS. A cook might have mild training, for example, or a Navy engineer's mate might not have the same extent of combat training. But every Marine gets this first and foremost. I acknowledge there are other divisions of the branches which then further develop these skills, such as Special Forces and Seals. But you guys know what I mean. It's difficult. You are trained to do a certain THING to those who oppose you, and the civilians sometimes don't respect this. You are never going to be the same as them: they shouldn't screw with us They ought to know better. But they don't. And they push you and mess with you, and they don't have a clue what they are messing with. These skills we have as a consequence of our military service ought to be considered, not that we are a detriment to society, but that we have done something FOR the country and that is forever.
So yes, veteran status should be considered in the eyes of the law. If an off-duty police officer receives consideration in a court of law, then so likewise should those who have served in the military, because we are NOT civilians, and never again will be.
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For me it would depend on the nature of the crime. Was it something that was brought on and aggravated by their service, ie did some civi get his teeth kicked in for saying something similar to what Michael Moore recently posted about snipers?? That to me might warrant some understanding and leniency.
If it was a crime in which the veteran used his military training to assist him in committing a crime or if the crime itself was particularly heinous in nature, I believe that they should be judged as any other criminal.
Generally speaking I consider military personnel to "know better" than the average person what is and is not acceptable behavior and conduct as not just a citizen but a citizen who volunteered to uphold the constitution and protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic. If you stray from that promise to your country and its people, be prepared to be judged.
If it was a crime in which the veteran used his military training to assist him in committing a crime or if the crime itself was particularly heinous in nature, I believe that they should be judged as any other criminal.
Generally speaking I consider military personnel to "know better" than the average person what is and is not acceptable behavior and conduct as not just a citizen but a citizen who volunteered to uphold the constitution and protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic. If you stray from that promise to your country and its people, be prepared to be judged.
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I am a former JAG officer and I currently have my own practice where I try to assist veterans in their legal needs. I am involved in a local veterans court and I see the answer to this question in two challenging ways:
1. Veterans should hold themselves to a higher standard. We are representatives of a noble calling and history. While on active duty, I was always disappointed to see my fellow soldiers acting without integrity, which happened often, sadly. When we accept the position of a soldier it should be reflected in our actions. We are not perfect, but we should act in a way that leads people to respect us and look up to us. This should continue in our time as veterans.
2. Most veterans that I know with legal issues just don't know what to do with their training, experience, and new lives once they have been discharged. Some have literally been trained as weapons and then are thrust into the civilian world without any direction or therapy. How are they to respond? Most dive into alcoholism, drug abuse, and violence. The VA does very little to help and does not look like they are trying to improve. So this leads to a "perfect storm" where soldiers are constantly breaking the law. This should allow lenience in their punishment. However, what good will any court do if the soldiers are not provided with some type of outlet, direction, purpose, or hope? I see many studies about soldier suicide and PTSD, but little about ways to solve these dilemmas.
Personally, I think there should be more focus on promoting family life and Biblical values. It is one of the few successful rehabilitative paths that I have personally observed and promotes the integrity that I mentioned above.
1. Veterans should hold themselves to a higher standard. We are representatives of a noble calling and history. While on active duty, I was always disappointed to see my fellow soldiers acting without integrity, which happened often, sadly. When we accept the position of a soldier it should be reflected in our actions. We are not perfect, but we should act in a way that leads people to respect us and look up to us. This should continue in our time as veterans.
2. Most veterans that I know with legal issues just don't know what to do with their training, experience, and new lives once they have been discharged. Some have literally been trained as weapons and then are thrust into the civilian world without any direction or therapy. How are they to respond? Most dive into alcoholism, drug abuse, and violence. The VA does very little to help and does not look like they are trying to improve. So this leads to a "perfect storm" where soldiers are constantly breaking the law. This should allow lenience in their punishment. However, what good will any court do if the soldiers are not provided with some type of outlet, direction, purpose, or hope? I see many studies about soldier suicide and PTSD, but little about ways to solve these dilemmas.
Personally, I think there should be more focus on promoting family life and Biblical values. It is one of the few successful rehabilitative paths that I have personally observed and promotes the integrity that I mentioned above.
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Why not? So what if they have long criminal histories. I for one have a violent criminal record. And I'm treated very well by the sheriffs department and the state whenever I get locked up. There are many special programs for us Vets inside the walls. In fact the last vet program I was in, back in 2006, brought back that military bearing. I was able to realize I needed to change my life for the better. And I did and continue to this day. Not only am I clean and sober but in perfect health and back on track.
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PFC Donnie Harold Harris
Thanks for your new level of personal Integrity. That is inspiring to me. Thanks.
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I retired in 2013 after 15 years in the Army JAG Corps and 9 years in combat arms. I recall my opposition to Veterans Courts while on my final Iraq tour in 2010. From within the military I viewed Veterans Courts as somehow offering an excuse for poor behavior. Following retirement I quickly changed my viewpoint following first hand contact with the veterans who had legal issues for the first times in their lives. The vast majority of men and women who I encountered had stellar military records and no prior legal issues. They shared the military values and did not want special treatment.
I found men and women who needed help to get back on track. I found men and women who daily relived terrible circumstances in a civilian world that shunned them. I found men and women who were repeatedly rejected from employment for which they were qualified. I have yet to find a veteran who wanted to go before the Veterans Court in order to get a deal. In fact, I have not found that Veterans Courts are there to let vets off the hook.
While each State is different, and in Oregon each county with a Vets Court is also different, the premise of our local courts is to look at more than the crime - but instead to look at the bigger picture. The photo above is from Marion County, Oregon. I have opened a law practice here in Marion County which employs veterans and dependents and which provides general legal services to veterans and Servicemembers. There is a great need because the legal community is primarily composed of individuals with no military background. Rarely is there understanding of DD 214 versus a VBA 21-0958, much less what it means to have been a gunner in a lead vehicles during OIF.
The Veterans Court in Marion County was established in recognition of the sacrifices that veterans have made for their country. The Heroes and Heritage Hall outside of the Veterans Treatment Court is adorned with stories of local veterans. It tells the stories of those local veterans who went before us, displaying the military values that we hold close to our hearts. The Heroes and Heritage Hall reminds veterans as the walk into the Courtroom that they are something more than the crime of which they are accused. It reminds them that they stand on the shoulders of the men and women who went before them. It reminds them that they represent the American military tradition and that others still look to them for what it means to be a Soldier, an Airman, a Sailor or a Marine.
Our court looks to the crime committed, of course. It is a justice court. However, justice is not served by the mandatory sentences which politicians like to impose. Justice is served by deliberate evaluation of the crime committed, the circumstances surrounding the crime and the punishment or the reparation or the treatment needed to atone for the crime. In my experience, the Marion County Veterans Treatment Court is a shining example of the American justice system ideal. It provides a thoughtful and comprehensive societal response when individuals are charged with illegal acts. It takes into account that the individuals have placed themselves in harms way for the good of society and partners with community and veteran organizations to support the veterans who sacrificed for their country.
The Veterans Court in Marion County Oregon, like most Veterans Courts, does not have a dedicated funding source. It depends on grants, good will and continued community support for future operations. The cost of returning our veterans to productive lives and giving them a hand up is so much less, however, than the cost of incarceration. I venture to say that nobody is harder on a veteran who committed a crime than that veteran is on him or herself. What the veteran often needs is a battle buddy, a mentor and a system that is willing to recognize the military values that still reside within. These men and women raised their hands and defended their country without hesitation. Their mindset and their view of the world is not the same as those who would occupy the cell to their left and their right.
Veterans Courts have the ability to positively impact honorable lives that have turned down a bad path. By placing a veteran to the accused's left and right, by demanding accountability and by expecting the best of the accused, veterans often rise to reflect the Soldier, Airman, Sailor or Marine that still resides within them.
I could not have been more wrong in opposing the Veterans Courts while I was active duty. That opinion resulted from an ignorance of what many veterans face on discharge. Never leave a fallen comrade became a part of who I was in the Army, and remains a part of who I am. The veterans who face the criminal justice system of do so because of deep wounds and the Veterans Courts help to rescue them when they need the support of their fellow veterans.
Mark Ronning / Northwest Veterans Law / Salem, Oregon
I found men and women who needed help to get back on track. I found men and women who daily relived terrible circumstances in a civilian world that shunned them. I found men and women who were repeatedly rejected from employment for which they were qualified. I have yet to find a veteran who wanted to go before the Veterans Court in order to get a deal. In fact, I have not found that Veterans Courts are there to let vets off the hook.
While each State is different, and in Oregon each county with a Vets Court is also different, the premise of our local courts is to look at more than the crime - but instead to look at the bigger picture. The photo above is from Marion County, Oregon. I have opened a law practice here in Marion County which employs veterans and dependents and which provides general legal services to veterans and Servicemembers. There is a great need because the legal community is primarily composed of individuals with no military background. Rarely is there understanding of DD 214 versus a VBA 21-0958, much less what it means to have been a gunner in a lead vehicles during OIF.
The Veterans Court in Marion County was established in recognition of the sacrifices that veterans have made for their country. The Heroes and Heritage Hall outside of the Veterans Treatment Court is adorned with stories of local veterans. It tells the stories of those local veterans who went before us, displaying the military values that we hold close to our hearts. The Heroes and Heritage Hall reminds veterans as the walk into the Courtroom that they are something more than the crime of which they are accused. It reminds them that they stand on the shoulders of the men and women who went before them. It reminds them that they represent the American military tradition and that others still look to them for what it means to be a Soldier, an Airman, a Sailor or a Marine.
Our court looks to the crime committed, of course. It is a justice court. However, justice is not served by the mandatory sentences which politicians like to impose. Justice is served by deliberate evaluation of the crime committed, the circumstances surrounding the crime and the punishment or the reparation or the treatment needed to atone for the crime. In my experience, the Marion County Veterans Treatment Court is a shining example of the American justice system ideal. It provides a thoughtful and comprehensive societal response when individuals are charged with illegal acts. It takes into account that the individuals have placed themselves in harms way for the good of society and partners with community and veteran organizations to support the veterans who sacrificed for their country.
The Veterans Court in Marion County Oregon, like most Veterans Courts, does not have a dedicated funding source. It depends on grants, good will and continued community support for future operations. The cost of returning our veterans to productive lives and giving them a hand up is so much less, however, than the cost of incarceration. I venture to say that nobody is harder on a veteran who committed a crime than that veteran is on him or herself. What the veteran often needs is a battle buddy, a mentor and a system that is willing to recognize the military values that still reside within. These men and women raised their hands and defended their country without hesitation. Their mindset and their view of the world is not the same as those who would occupy the cell to their left and their right.
Veterans Courts have the ability to positively impact honorable lives that have turned down a bad path. By placing a veteran to the accused's left and right, by demanding accountability and by expecting the best of the accused, veterans often rise to reflect the Soldier, Airman, Sailor or Marine that still resides within them.
I could not have been more wrong in opposing the Veterans Courts while I was active duty. That opinion resulted from an ignorance of what many veterans face on discharge. Never leave a fallen comrade became a part of who I was in the Army, and remains a part of who I am. The veterans who face the criminal justice system of do so because of deep wounds and the Veterans Courts help to rescue them when they need the support of their fellow veterans.
Mark Ronning / Northwest Veterans Law / Salem, Oregon
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As a "Veteran" shouldn't you be held to a higher standard? I think so.......
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PO1 William Bargar
I was saying Veterans should be smarter than most so they should stay out of trouble! Most know better!
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CPO Michael Callegri
We've all been given that briefing before we went on Shore Leave overseas. I agree, we should be smarter and more should be expected of us.
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I believe there are distinct levels of delineation with respect to why they are in court. Capital crimes are held at a different level than a misdemeanor. There should be separate evaluations for the veterans in case a little bit of help is useful in helping a veteran through their particular situational difficulty so they can correct behavior and become a productive human being, as opposed to another lost soul who served.
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I believe there are distinct levels of delineation with respect to why they are in court. Capital crimes are held at a different level than a misdemeanor. There should be separate evaluations for the veterans in case a little bit of help is useful in helping a veteran through their particular situational difficulty so they can correct behavior and become a productive human being, as opposed to another lost soul who served.
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