Posted on Mar 12, 2015
Should We Be Surprised By Male Sailor Misconduct Towards Female Submarine Officers?
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According to Navy prosecutors, a group of male submarine Sailors aboard the USS Wyoming traded illicit videos of female Officers in various stages of undress "as if they were Pokemon cards."
1.) Does this news really shock or surprise any of you? Why or why not?
2.) Is this a problem unique to this one boat, or does it represent a broader
problem across the Silent Service?
3.) What actions can be taken to prevent future occurrences of conduct such as
this? Who's responsibility is it to fix this?
Just as I did last week with my discussion with the Air Force, I am posting this discussion not to air the Navy's dirty laundry or to point a finger and laugh, but to learn from those of you who are closer to this situation what the reality is and what lessons you are learning that may be beneficial for the Army. I will not tolerate disrespect on this thread, and it is not my intent to see it sink (no pun intended) into a battle of mud-slinging, service-bashing, name-calling, or meme warfare! We are all professionals, comport yourselves accordingly.
Just a little bit about my background, I am a Military Police Officer, one of the few Army Branches that has integrated both genders and places them both equally into positions in which they can be expected to lead Soldiers into direct combat. I have served my entire career alongside women, including combat in Iraq. In my current assignment, I am trained in the Army's Sexual Harassment/Assault Response Prevention program, serving as my Unit's Victim's Advocate. Therefore, this story holds a professional interest for me.
Thank you!
1.) Does this news really shock or surprise any of you? Why or why not?
2.) Is this a problem unique to this one boat, or does it represent a broader
problem across the Silent Service?
3.) What actions can be taken to prevent future occurrences of conduct such as
this? Who's responsibility is it to fix this?
Just as I did last week with my discussion with the Air Force, I am posting this discussion not to air the Navy's dirty laundry or to point a finger and laugh, but to learn from those of you who are closer to this situation what the reality is and what lessons you are learning that may be beneficial for the Army. I will not tolerate disrespect on this thread, and it is not my intent to see it sink (no pun intended) into a battle of mud-slinging, service-bashing, name-calling, or meme warfare! We are all professionals, comport yourselves accordingly.
Just a little bit about my background, I am a Military Police Officer, one of the few Army Branches that has integrated both genders and places them both equally into positions in which they can be expected to lead Soldiers into direct combat. I have served my entire career alongside women, including combat in Iraq. In my current assignment, I am trained in the Army's Sexual Harassment/Assault Response Prevention program, serving as my Unit's Victim's Advocate. Therefore, this story holds a professional interest for me.
Thank you!
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 38
This does not shock me, as the submarine world is much like tankers or infantry in the Army; no woman...
Clearly it is unacceptable.
I think this typical of what happens, or will happen when women are allowed to serve in jobs that were previously all male; "the he man woman haters" society.
This needs to be zero tolerance, and it needs to be clear that woman are allowed.
So, get over it.
Clearly it is unacceptable.
I think this typical of what happens, or will happen when women are allowed to serve in jobs that were previously all male; "the he man woman haters" society.
This needs to be zero tolerance, and it needs to be clear that woman are allowed.
So, get over it.
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SGT Jim Z.
I concur COL Charles Williams they need set the example early and often and the punishment should be hard to persuade the practice going forward.
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PO1 Harry Champagne
the part i do not understand is how did these men have access to the female berthing area? never served on a sub so i have no idea how the berthing is arranged i assume its like on a surface ship( segregated ).some one please set me strait on this.
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1) Surprised? Yes. I'm shocked actually. That anyone can actually think this is acceptable anywhere. I don't get it. I understand erotica, porn, etc. But non-consensual videos, I just don't get it. When the first guy showed the second guy... how did the burn fest not begin.
2) I hope it's isolated. Because if this is endemic, we just need to scrap the entire sub fleet and start over.
3) There will always be idiots. When we catch them, we burn them, and we burn those who tolerate them. As for who's responsible. It's always the individual, but like an unsafe condition, if you see it report it.
2) I hope it's isolated. Because if this is endemic, we just need to scrap the entire sub fleet and start over.
3) There will always be idiots. When we catch them, we burn them, and we burn those who tolerate them. As for who's responsible. It's always the individual, but like an unsafe condition, if you see it report it.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS , for the sake of the submarine service, I do share your hopes that this is an isolated case!
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MAJ (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS , you're damned right it does; so long as it's rolling upwards in the interest of proper accountability and not Politically-Correct window dressing!
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PO3 Donald Murphy
Well again, its going to be difficult. Not just in the sub community; any community. Theres kids in high school upskirting girls on the bus. Yeah they shouldn't be doing it and yeah its wrong, but unless you ban cell phones you're fighting a losing battle. And to be fair to you and me, as "wrong" as it is, and as "punishing" as the perputrator will be dealt with, it won't be strong enough to deter others.
My comments earlier are due to government allowing girls to believe that the environment is going to be civilian sterile.
My comments earlier are due to government allowing girls to believe that the environment is going to be civilian sterile.
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Women on submarines was an inevitability. Having been on a submarine, there is next to no privacy. What was done is unacceptable and should be dealt with swiftly and in accordance with the UCMJ. The message needs to be sent out that such behavior will not be accepted.
In my opinion, such an action by sailors places blame not only on them, but also the command for not effectively setting the atmosphere on the boat. If they can't change old behaviors then room needs to be made for people who can. The sailors aren't kids and neither are the officers. They volunteered to serve. If people have problems following orders or a change in mission, they can very well deal with it until their discharge and leave.
In my opinion, such an action by sailors places blame not only on them, but also the command for not effectively setting the atmosphere on the boat. If they can't change old behaviors then room needs to be made for people who can. The sailors aren't kids and neither are the officers. They volunteered to serve. If people have problems following orders or a change in mission, they can very well deal with it until their discharge and leave.
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PO1 Donald Hammond
There are already so many stressors on a submarine that the Navy is just asking for trouble with co-ed submarines. Does it make it right what happened? No. Will it happen again? Yes. I wonder what they will do when a couple is found having sex in the reactor compartment. You know it will happen.
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PO1 Donald Hammond
PO2 Marc Gunter - Pretty sure it would have made headlines if anybody had been CAUGHT.
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Back in the 80s this idea came up, women on submarines. Us bubbleheads all said "are you freaking nuts?" Not saying women can't do the job but the stress of submarine life without both sexes on board is bad enough. Adding this stresser into the mix is bad news and now we see why.
Unless you have ever served on a submarine you can not understand the life. I see a comparison to a tank crew. Not even close. The closest you might get is being on the space station and even then it is tenuous at best.
Studies are showing that submarine vets especially nuke electricians suffer a form of PTSD. Why? Because they are on alert 24/7 for months on end. No fresh air. No sunlight. No outside communications. No way to actually tell what day it is or time either. It is an isolated world.
Why nuke electricians? Because we owned the submarine. I hear this has changed recently. But we owned everything that had power going to it. We owned the "grid". I could be changing a light bulb one minute and then working on a highly technical generator the next. Any time power went out somewhere the electricians were called. It was rare for us to have "time off".
We were in 3 section rotation. That meant 6 hours of standing watch, 6 hours of doing maintenance and supposedly 6 hours of sleep. But for electricians it meant 6 hours of watch 6 hours of working on something, 6 hours of drills, 6 hours of watch, 6 hours of maintenance, 6 hours of cleaning (field day) etc etc. It was not uncommon for us to go over 48 hours without sleep. Most I ever did was 108 hours straight. Major piece of equipment was broken and I was the only one certified to work on it. I fixed it and started hallucinating I guess. I don't remember that part of it.
Anyway. Back to the point. This is not an excuse for what was done. These guys need to be punished. But maybe the Navy needs to rethink this issue too. How about an all female crew? Why not? I think by NOT doing this the Navy is saying women can't do the job.
Oh and I have seen women in the military (and as a civilian) doing things like this too. It isn't just a male problem.
Stop with the social engineering in the military.
Unless you have ever served on a submarine you can not understand the life. I see a comparison to a tank crew. Not even close. The closest you might get is being on the space station and even then it is tenuous at best.
Studies are showing that submarine vets especially nuke electricians suffer a form of PTSD. Why? Because they are on alert 24/7 for months on end. No fresh air. No sunlight. No outside communications. No way to actually tell what day it is or time either. It is an isolated world.
Why nuke electricians? Because we owned the submarine. I hear this has changed recently. But we owned everything that had power going to it. We owned the "grid". I could be changing a light bulb one minute and then working on a highly technical generator the next. Any time power went out somewhere the electricians were called. It was rare for us to have "time off".
We were in 3 section rotation. That meant 6 hours of standing watch, 6 hours of doing maintenance and supposedly 6 hours of sleep. But for electricians it meant 6 hours of watch 6 hours of working on something, 6 hours of drills, 6 hours of watch, 6 hours of maintenance, 6 hours of cleaning (field day) etc etc. It was not uncommon for us to go over 48 hours without sleep. Most I ever did was 108 hours straight. Major piece of equipment was broken and I was the only one certified to work on it. I fixed it and started hallucinating I guess. I don't remember that part of it.
Anyway. Back to the point. This is not an excuse for what was done. These guys need to be punished. But maybe the Navy needs to rethink this issue too. How about an all female crew? Why not? I think by NOT doing this the Navy is saying women can't do the job.
Oh and I have seen women in the military (and as a civilian) doing things like this too. It isn't just a male problem.
Stop with the social engineering in the military.
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CDR Kenneth Kaiser
An all female crew might be the objcective but as I recall from my far distant past, one had to qualify on the boat. So before you could get to an all female crew you would have to go through an extended period of co ed crews in order to develop a fully qualified female crew which brings us back to the original problem. Coed crew in a confined space for extended periods of time, no privacy, can't go out on deck to get some alone time limited space, all of the other stuff you alluded to.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
CDR Kenneth Kaiser - Easy answer would be a trainer sub. Get two subs and cut the crew. 75 guys/75 girls. The girls are there to run the sub with the guys as backup. Once the girls get their fins, they go to the second trainer sub which is all girls except for an emergency watch crew of men (about 20 guys). That sub deploys, does operations, etc. Once the patrol ends, you'd have enough girls to give them their entire sub "for real." Girls keep sea time and pay quotients. Until you got enough girls for another all-girl sub, the sub would have a two crew rotation. That way one boat, multiple crew.
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CDR Kenneth Kaiser
PO3 Donald Murphy - That would work but I still think it would take more time then most anticipate because you would have to develop a crew that could function on all levels from the lowest to CO/XO (including a female COB) and that means different levels of training. I think that is the point that most folks miss. Since they are just starting I don't think they have females who are trained for anything more than entry level positions.
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I find the state of anyones surprise to be irrelevant. The fact that this is despicable, disrespectful, and downright wrong, is independent from being surprised. This needs to be dealt with swiftly and strongly and steps taken to try and prevent it.
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Hell yeah we should be surprised MAJ (Join to see)!
Sir, this is not the behavior we expect from our professional military force. We should be ashamed and appalled as well as motivated to take action to prevent a repeat of this indecent behavior. All of our Service Members should expect, and every one of them sure as hell deserve better!
Sir, this is not the behavior we expect from our professional military force. We should be ashamed and appalled as well as motivated to take action to prevent a repeat of this indecent behavior. All of our Service Members should expect, and every one of them sure as hell deserve better!
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MAJ (Join to see)
CSM Michael J. Uhlig , I heartily concur. Though it is very preliminary, look at the early comments, Sergeant Major. We as Senior Leaders react with the rightful indignation while our junior Soldiers react with resigned disappointment, but no element of shock or surprise. Does this say society has desensitized them to such cruelty and misconduct? Or is it something they have resigned themselves to expect out of their Service Leadership? Either way, the implications are frightening.
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I think the use of the words "should be" implies that "surprised" is a condition in which we aught to be.
And maybe we should be.
But many of us aren't.
http://www.worldwideweirdnews.com/2013/05/27318.html
I AM surprised that the footage passed through at least a dozen sailors before one of them decided that the other guys were thoroughly (and inevitably) screwed.
Mind blown.
And maybe we should be.
But many of us aren't.
http://www.worldwideweirdnews.com/2013/05/27318.html
I AM surprised that the footage passed through at least a dozen sailors before one of them decided that the other guys were thoroughly (and inevitably) screwed.
Mind blown.
West Point Army Sergeant arrested after recording female soldiers taking showers
(Scroll down for video) A U.S. Military Sergeant was arrested and charged with sexual harassment related charges after recording female soldiers taking showers and using the bathroom, according to a statement released by military officials in West Point, New York.The sergeant first class of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, has been accused of recording women cadets without their consent, sometimes when undressed in the bathroom or...
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MAJ (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see), an astute observation! We truly have lived to see the death of outrage, at least when it comes to these issues, haven't we, SGT? No Service Branch can claim the moral high ground, as we are all equally afflicted.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
I'm afraid that social media and electronicization of society has merely taken behavior already known and propogated it faster. Single guys look at breasts on a single girl. In the old days, you had to wait until you saw your friends to talk about "that girl." Now, within seconds, everyone of your friends across multiple time zones can see the photo of the girl you saw and enhancement software on your phone can focus on just her breasts. All within nano seconds.
Like the meme says: "the internet doesn't make you stupid. It just makes your stupidity more visible to others." No woman, civilian or military is safe/free from electronic snooping. Go to meritline.com; theres' cameras disguised as pencils and flash drives for heavens sake! Privacy's a thing of the past. No, it shouldn't be but only abstinence is gonna shut it out.
Like the meme says: "the internet doesn't make you stupid. It just makes your stupidity more visible to others." No woman, civilian or military is safe/free from electronic snooping. Go to meritline.com; theres' cameras disguised as pencils and flash drives for heavens sake! Privacy's a thing of the past. No, it shouldn't be but only abstinence is gonna shut it out.
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Yes, we should be surprised that grown men, with security clearances and the trust to run a multi million dollar projection of national power acted like a bunch of middle school kids trying to look at their dad's playboys.
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MAJ (Join to see)
TSgt Joshua Copeland , You Sir, have a distinct way of cutting straight to the heart of the matter!
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PO2 Marc Gunter
Grown men??? Most of these sailors in question are 18-23 years old...the time when boys' hormones are the most active. You confine them into a closed environment where the only females they see are the ones on the ship.
I don't condone it but, at the same time, I'm not at all surprised or shocked.
This is one of the main reasons that I don't agree with females being stationed on ALL vessels...you can't legislate nature out of existence.
I don't condone it but, at the same time, I'm not at all surprised or shocked.
This is one of the main reasons that I don't agree with females being stationed on ALL vessels...you can't legislate nature out of existence.
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CPO Zack Lindsey
Well when you find them haveing sex on that nuke plat for one hopefully it is not being filmed. But you do what. The UCMJ. says to do. and hopefully that will end that and yes it will be more difficult than on surface ships cause of the close spaces but it can be done.It will be done cause of the not just cause of the upper leadership but also of the pride of the submarine fleet itself and this is coming from a skimmer lol (. There title not mine ) one. Last thing than I will leave has for the tapering how would those so called men feel if that was there wife's or sisters daughters etc etc that they where watching I don't think I need to say any thing else.
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This is not acceptable!
We should keep in mind the various formerly all male communities will be undergoing changes as women are increasingly integrated into these areas of service. Also, keep in mind that behaviors and attitudes stem both from the bottom up (what people's upbringing provides) and the top down (what they seem to be told or are shown by example is OK). In either case, the military has always been a microcosm of the good and bad in society in general. Also, keep in mind until society as a whole provides strong actions in society to curtail such behaviors from the carpet sweepers to the CEO level, we will continue to have such behaviors. Each each one of is accountable male and female to assuring proper behaviors are adhered to!
In his book, Its Your Ship, Captain Abrashoff points out the issue of personal responsibility and accountability from the deck seaman to his role as CO. We'd do well to help men and women officer and enlisted ask the simple question: What if this were their sister, mother, grandmother or wife that had been violated in this way. We have to look at ROOT CAUSE and not simply punish some. If we punish without getting at the root cause and helping young men and women to take a different approach, then punishment alone may drive others to even more negative behaviors.
As an HMC I have had to deal with these aftermaths and is not fun! We have to remember that everyone has a right to privacy and a violation of that privacy, how every small a space it comes in, is a violation of TRUST. Sailors on subs must trust each other, as sailors, marines, airmen and solders in any unit that is highly successful, must trust each other, otherwise unit cohesion goes into the toilet and a CO's ability to maintain HONOR in their command is - SHOT TO HELL!!!
We should keep in mind the various formerly all male communities will be undergoing changes as women are increasingly integrated into these areas of service. Also, keep in mind that behaviors and attitudes stem both from the bottom up (what people's upbringing provides) and the top down (what they seem to be told or are shown by example is OK). In either case, the military has always been a microcosm of the good and bad in society in general. Also, keep in mind until society as a whole provides strong actions in society to curtail such behaviors from the carpet sweepers to the CEO level, we will continue to have such behaviors. Each each one of is accountable male and female to assuring proper behaviors are adhered to!
In his book, Its Your Ship, Captain Abrashoff points out the issue of personal responsibility and accountability from the deck seaman to his role as CO. We'd do well to help men and women officer and enlisted ask the simple question: What if this were their sister, mother, grandmother or wife that had been violated in this way. We have to look at ROOT CAUSE and not simply punish some. If we punish without getting at the root cause and helping young men and women to take a different approach, then punishment alone may drive others to even more negative behaviors.
As an HMC I have had to deal with these aftermaths and is not fun! We have to remember that everyone has a right to privacy and a violation of that privacy, how every small a space it comes in, is a violation of TRUST. Sailors on subs must trust each other, as sailors, marines, airmen and solders in any unit that is highly successful, must trust each other, otherwise unit cohesion goes into the toilet and a CO's ability to maintain HONOR in their command is - SHOT TO HELL!!!
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