Posted on Mar 1, 2015
Should you be considered a veteran of a particular campaign, if you have never actually been on the ground there?
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I have seen earlier discussion(s) about Vietnam Era Veterans vs. Vietnam Veterans. The later group being ones who actually served in the RVN combat theater of the operations (AOO), or (I assume) the area of responsibility (AOR). This includes ground forces in the AOO, and supporting forces in the (AOR).
The gray area, which always seems to be the area of confusion and often consternation, are those who support the AOO from outside of its boundaries and what type of support are they actually providing.
A few examples:
1. I served all over Iraq, and in Baghdad for 15 months during the Surge. As you know service members in Kuwait, Qatar and other places around the AOR, many of whom never entered Iraq, are (A) considered OIF campaign veterans, and (B) were entitled to the same pay benefits (CZTE - IDP) as we were. Serving in Baghdad, in places like Sadr City the like, I was as times frustrated that my peers on Qatar (who could even drink there) were getting the same benefits that we were. I think the only difference was they could not award combat awards and decorations.
* During a really bad time (week) during the surge, I got a photo from a buddy on email, who was on the 6 month CENTCOM rotation into Qatar, of him sitting in a Jacuzzi drinking a beer, in Qatar. I know they received CZTE, but not sure about IDP. But, they are OIF campaign veterans like me. That still bothers me. Yes, I know I need to let it go.
2. During Allied Force, USAF pilots were flying bombing missions from Aviano Italy into Kosovo and back in the same day. I don't think they qualified for any pay benefits aside from what they get normally, but there was a big "to do" when they tried to award combat medals to USAF personnel who never left Italy or EUCOM HQ (Stuttgart).
3. Today B2 Bombers fly from Missouri to current combat theaters and back in 24 hours... Are they OEF veterans? Should they be?
I am not saying only ground forces deserve credit, as I believe both those serving in the theater on ground, as well as those who provide direct support into or over the combat theater deserves the same campaign credit. Examples would be USN or USAF flying missions into the area, but returning to bases/carriers outside the AOO or even AOR. Blue water Navy providing support in the AOR etc. I suspect there are many I don't see or know about as a Soldier.
I am sure you have many examples, and I have my opinions, which are based on my experiences. I am interested in what you think, so I can broaden my perspective.
The gray area, which always seems to be the area of confusion and often consternation, are those who support the AOO from outside of its boundaries and what type of support are they actually providing.
A few examples:
1. I served all over Iraq, and in Baghdad for 15 months during the Surge. As you know service members in Kuwait, Qatar and other places around the AOR, many of whom never entered Iraq, are (A) considered OIF campaign veterans, and (B) were entitled to the same pay benefits (CZTE - IDP) as we were. Serving in Baghdad, in places like Sadr City the like, I was as times frustrated that my peers on Qatar (who could even drink there) were getting the same benefits that we were. I think the only difference was they could not award combat awards and decorations.
* During a really bad time (week) during the surge, I got a photo from a buddy on email, who was on the 6 month CENTCOM rotation into Qatar, of him sitting in a Jacuzzi drinking a beer, in Qatar. I know they received CZTE, but not sure about IDP. But, they are OIF campaign veterans like me. That still bothers me. Yes, I know I need to let it go.
2. During Allied Force, USAF pilots were flying bombing missions from Aviano Italy into Kosovo and back in the same day. I don't think they qualified for any pay benefits aside from what they get normally, but there was a big "to do" when they tried to award combat medals to USAF personnel who never left Italy or EUCOM HQ (Stuttgart).
3. Today B2 Bombers fly from Missouri to current combat theaters and back in 24 hours... Are they OEF veterans? Should they be?
I am not saying only ground forces deserve credit, as I believe both those serving in the theater on ground, as well as those who provide direct support into or over the combat theater deserves the same campaign credit. Examples would be USN or USAF flying missions into the area, but returning to bases/carriers outside the AOO or even AOR. Blue water Navy providing support in the AOR etc. I suspect there are many I don't see or know about as a Soldier.
I am sure you have many examples, and I have my opinions, which are based on my experiences. I am interested in what you think, so I can broaden my perspective.
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Combat
Deployment
Combat Deployment
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 54
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I think this is a good discussion. There are many opinions that I have seen on the subject. I believe like others have stated that a veteran is a veteran but I do not like hearing from others about how much it sucked doing six months at Al Udeid. I put them above someone that has never deployed but below others that have had worse. I think it all goes down to how they act about their service, yes you played a part, do not exaggerate it. This is the same way I feel when I see someone with a bronze star vs. a bronze star w/ valor. You can also notice others that have earned a Combat Action Badge or Combat Action Ribbon.
I do believe that USAF pilots and UAV operators are deserving of their medals because of the effects on the mission but not entitled to additional pay benefits of equal status for individuals in harms way. I will say I do not envy the UAV operators because their job is in high demand, high stressed and would in no way want to do it myself.
I do believe that USAF pilots and UAV operators are deserving of their medals because of the effects on the mission but not entitled to additional pay benefits of equal status for individuals in harms way. I will say I do not envy the UAV operators because their job is in high demand, high stressed and would in no way want to do it myself.
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COL Charles Williams
Thanks MSgt (Join to see)! I appreciate your insight and your perspective. I agree, what frustrates me is the embellishment of what one did, and never exaggerate.
Thank you again!
Thank you again!
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Sir, I'm going to start with the Navy guys because this is the simplest one to answer.
On the Blue side (Shipboard), they don't have "ground" on which they can go, so we have to use the "surface" or surrounding waters as their equivalent. Starting with ships that have a direct fire mission (like a Battleship i.e. USS New Jersey), they are absolutely equal in every way to someone who was in country performing the same task, like an Artillery battery.
To expand on that, if a Carrier Group is launching their Air Wing from 20 miles off shore, is that any different than launching it from twenty miles in any other direction from the target, from an expeditionary air field from inside the country? What about any of the support ships, etc. I think they are all the same.
Now as for the Air Force, and farther reaching missions, I can definitely understand where you are coming from. However remember all it takes is "one bad day" and that routine mission turns into something else. I don't have nearly the time in that you do, Sir, but 99% boredom and paperwork for 1% of bat@$% craziness that you just can't plan.
Now personally, I fall under weirdness when it comes to the classifications. I "officially" became a "Combat Veteran" (VA Classification) when I stepped foot in Kuwait during the Cease Fire. It was a non-active zone. There were no active hostilities going on, but Saddam was still running around being a knucklehead and posturing, and we were still issuing the National Defense Medal from the first Gulf War (making me a Gulf War Era Veteran, VA Classification for that time frame before they changed it). The entire area (Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf, etc) was "Imminent Danger" (not Hostile Fire) and Tax Free zone. Now with the way the dates have been shifted around, I was actually in the Gulf on my second deployment which had I not ever stepped foot on land would have given me the other VA classifications (Persian Gulf itself was designated a combat zone).
Now do I call my self a "Combat Veteran?" No. Am I a Gulf War or a Gulf War(s) Era Veteran? That's where things get really tricky. I wasn't there for Desert Storm. I don't ever claim to be. I was there during the ceasefire, and during actual operations tied to the war. I have a Campaign medal for being there.
Edit: for clarity
On the Blue side (Shipboard), they don't have "ground" on which they can go, so we have to use the "surface" or surrounding waters as their equivalent. Starting with ships that have a direct fire mission (like a Battleship i.e. USS New Jersey), they are absolutely equal in every way to someone who was in country performing the same task, like an Artillery battery.
To expand on that, if a Carrier Group is launching their Air Wing from 20 miles off shore, is that any different than launching it from twenty miles in any other direction from the target, from an expeditionary air field from inside the country? What about any of the support ships, etc. I think they are all the same.
Now as for the Air Force, and farther reaching missions, I can definitely understand where you are coming from. However remember all it takes is "one bad day" and that routine mission turns into something else. I don't have nearly the time in that you do, Sir, but 99% boredom and paperwork for 1% of bat@$% craziness that you just can't plan.
Now personally, I fall under weirdness when it comes to the classifications. I "officially" became a "Combat Veteran" (VA Classification) when I stepped foot in Kuwait during the Cease Fire. It was a non-active zone. There were no active hostilities going on, but Saddam was still running around being a knucklehead and posturing, and we were still issuing the National Defense Medal from the first Gulf War (making me a Gulf War Era Veteran, VA Classification for that time frame before they changed it). The entire area (Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf, etc) was "Imminent Danger" (not Hostile Fire) and Tax Free zone. Now with the way the dates have been shifted around, I was actually in the Gulf on my second deployment which had I not ever stepped foot on land would have given me the other VA classifications (Persian Gulf itself was designated a combat zone).
Now do I call my self a "Combat Veteran?" No. Am I a Gulf War or a Gulf War(s) Era Veteran? That's where things get really tricky. I wasn't there for Desert Storm. I don't ever claim to be. I was there during the ceasefire, and during actual operations tied to the war. I have a Campaign medal for being there.
Edit: for clarity
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COL Charles Williams
Thank you Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS. I appreciate your comments! I agree, that Navy or USAF providing indirect or direct fire support is clearly a campaign veteran. I guess, I was thinking more of the folks working in the CENTCOM or 3rd Army HQ as an example. Clearly pilots who enter the AOR/AOO and forces providing direct and general support are part of the operation. My question, was aimed at the Army and CINC HQ level.
And, for the record, the Navy does have ground (aside from SOCOM)... The last time I deployed our Brigade engineers were Navy SeeBees... or Dirt Sailors as they referred to themselves. And, they were the best engineers I have ever worked with.
And, for the record, the Navy does have ground (aside from SOCOM)... The last time I deployed our Brigade engineers were Navy SeeBees... or Dirt Sailors as they referred to themselves. And, they were the best engineers I have ever worked with.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
I get where you are coming from on the HHQ guys. But I remember off-loading in Kuwait City. We had to go through that huge Army base there (and spending several ice cold evenings cleaning vehicles before we could leave country). That entire base is just support for the region. If Ted in refueling is providing operational support, why isn't his roommate Bob in accounting considered in the same "boat?"
Yes Sir, those are GREEN Side (Ground) Sailors, as opposed to the Blue Side. Seabees & Corpsman (with Marines), or pretty much anyone that tosses on our lovely green/tan Marpat/Woodlands. Back when I was in, the Blue side guys still wore dungarees 99% of the time.
Yes Sir, those are GREEN Side (Ground) Sailors, as opposed to the Blue Side. Seabees & Corpsman (with Marines), or pretty much anyone that tosses on our lovely green/tan Marpat/Woodlands. Back when I was in, the Blue side guys still wore dungarees 99% of the time.
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COL Charles Williams
My comment resonated from a photo I got from a peer, I received via email, when I was in Baghdad, during the surge. I was late at night, after very long and emotional day... and it was of him in Qatar drinking a beer and sitting in a Jacuzzi... He was in the same campaign I was... Except, I am sure he had not awarded Purple Hearts that day....
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sir, I get it. I absolutely get it.
This is in an emotionally charged topic, and it's hard to approach with any degree of logic. Unfortunately, I think it boils down to everyone's experiences during war is different, and I really that is regardless of geographic location.
Your buddy most likely had a "bad timing moment" on what would have normally been a "great" joke. As service members, we always bitch about who has it worse, and when someone is finally in a position that they definitively have it better than someone else, the urge to share "seems like a good idea."
This is in an emotionally charged topic, and it's hard to approach with any degree of logic. Unfortunately, I think it boils down to everyone's experiences during war is different, and I really that is regardless of geographic location.
Your buddy most likely had a "bad timing moment" on what would have normally been a "great" joke. As service members, we always bitch about who has it worse, and when someone is finally in a position that they definitively have it better than someone else, the urge to share "seems like a good idea."
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I agree with COL. Charles Williams statement above, but add this; I am Jerry E. Bustin, a COMBAT VET!!! What I mean by that, I fire and received returned fire from the enemy. I feel that anyone who gives up civilian life to have spent time in the arm forces is a VET and should receive all benefits accordingly; They earned it just by serving. However, there should be a COMBAT BADGE along with a COMBAT MEDAL for anyone who goes out to battle on a mission or been SHELLED at, period. Then one can tell if you're a regular soldier or one who has BEEN IN COMBAT!!!
If you agree SAY SO with reason...
If you agree SAY SO with reason...
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Some of those people could be mortared. We were behind the Im Jin in Korea and I don’t consider myself a combat vet. Still there were infiltrators. Hair splitting.
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My thought on this is logistics, it takes multiple soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines to support those who have to outside the wire. Some of those who support would rather be outside, however are required for their own missions that make it possible for the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines to make it out to and back from their successful missions.
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Sure you are still a veteran. In the end 99% of that chest candy is worthless. If you don’t have a bronze star with V or higher it’s really just a participation trophy anyway. No need to hate on your fellow service members for something weak like that. I would much rather have hung out going to green beans daily.
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Let it go. Your Rambo time would have been a lot worse without the support of those you consider unworthy.
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Being in Theater doesn’t equate to being in Combat. If your canteen water doesn’t taste like the dust you’re walking in and you don’t have Rounds pinging off your gear, you’re not a Combat Vet!
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Sir, with all due respect, I gave 26 years active duty and 2 in the reserves. During this time i deployed during Desert Storm, during the push forward my vehicle broke down and my TC and I were left behind and later pick up by another unit, while with that unit we came under fire where a round landed less than 50 feet from our vehicle, we later found out it was friendly fire, we didn’t get a CAB, we didn’t have them at that time. Later in my career I deployed to Iraq and assigned to do FOB security never leaving the FOB to go kick in doors so to speak, but ensuring that everyone on the FOB was as safe can be. I was later deployed to Afghanistan were I was to help establish the AAFES exchange on the FOB I was assigned too, as well as serving as the BDE Food Service NCO, only leaving the FOB to do re supply run or to check on the Soldiers on the other FOB, so in your opinion I may not be a “Combat Veteran” because I didn’t get to go kick in doors but I did the jobs that were assigned to me while deployed like them or not
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