Posted on Aug 26, 2015
Veterans discharged for misconduct have higher risk of homelessness. I read this and I don't think it's true. What do you think?
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I read this report and believe the VA is publishing something that isn't true. No other studies have been done by this doctor, plus, I think he is biased. It actually pisses me off. See what you think.
The researchers used data on 448,290 U.S. active-duty military service members who were separated from the military between 2001 and 2011, deployed in Afghanistan or Iraq, and who subsequently used Veterans Health Administration services.
Service members who separate from the military have Department of Defense codes attributing the separation to misconduct including drugs, alcoholism, offenses and infraction, disability, early release, disqualified, normal, or unknown.
Almost 25,000 of the people in the database had been separated for misconduct, less than six percent of the total group.
According to the report 26% of folks discharged for misconduct are homeless when they first show up at the VA. Of course, in my opinion, they get it all exactly backwards. The military gives bad conduct discharges to people who exhibit anti-social behavior, so yeah, they’re probably going to exhibit anti-social behavior when they hit the streets, too. It’s not the type of discharge that causes the behavior, it’s the type of person that gets those discharges.
The study goes on to blame PTSD and combat experiences for the anti-social behavior, but they don’t mention how many of the separated service members actually participated in a PTSD-producing event. Additionally, as we’ve seen several times, the VA has done a piss-poor job of separating pretend veterans from the actual veterans, so what safe guards did the good doctor use in this study? Some of our friends have jobs in the private sector for helping veterans and they’ve lost their jobs for scrutinizing these pretend veterans too closely.
I could have told Doctor Gundlapalli how his study would end before it started. Rather than focus on the 10% of his sampling who are still homeless after 10 years, he should be looking at how the other 90% are beating those odds.
https://celebrity.yahoo.com/news/veterans-discharged-misconduct-higher-risk-homelessness-153400314.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma
The researchers used data on 448,290 U.S. active-duty military service members who were separated from the military between 2001 and 2011, deployed in Afghanistan or Iraq, and who subsequently used Veterans Health Administration services.
Service members who separate from the military have Department of Defense codes attributing the separation to misconduct including drugs, alcoholism, offenses and infraction, disability, early release, disqualified, normal, or unknown.
Almost 25,000 of the people in the database had been separated for misconduct, less than six percent of the total group.
According to the report 26% of folks discharged for misconduct are homeless when they first show up at the VA. Of course, in my opinion, they get it all exactly backwards. The military gives bad conduct discharges to people who exhibit anti-social behavior, so yeah, they’re probably going to exhibit anti-social behavior when they hit the streets, too. It’s not the type of discharge that causes the behavior, it’s the type of person that gets those discharges.
The study goes on to blame PTSD and combat experiences for the anti-social behavior, but they don’t mention how many of the separated service members actually participated in a PTSD-producing event. Additionally, as we’ve seen several times, the VA has done a piss-poor job of separating pretend veterans from the actual veterans, so what safe guards did the good doctor use in this study? Some of our friends have jobs in the private sector for helping veterans and they’ve lost their jobs for scrutinizing these pretend veterans too closely.
I could have told Doctor Gundlapalli how his study would end before it started. Rather than focus on the 10% of his sampling who are still homeless after 10 years, he should be looking at how the other 90% are beating those odds.
https://celebrity.yahoo.com/news/veterans-discharged-misconduct-higher-risk-homelessness-153400314.html?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma
Posted in these groups: 
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)
Homeless
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) Homeless
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
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The only thing I could see that MIGHT back it up, is that if discharged for misconduct it could be harder to get a job. Joblessness and homelessness definitely relate.
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SGT (Join to see)
LCDR (Join to see), Personally, I think it's the VA's way of trying to explain why vets aren't treated faster. I think it's a biased article from one study.
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LCDR (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) I could see that thought as well. It would be a convenient answer.
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I feel it goes hand in had as in: If you are undisciplined in the Military, chances are that your are undisciplined in life.
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SGT (Join to see)
Makes sense to me SGT (Join to see). If one is that undisciplined, I don't know why they would join a strict military service.
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Capt (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) Many of us joined the military while still very young. Some matured, some didn't.
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Hey SGT (Join to see) I've read a study on suicide and early separation under OTH conditions that shows there is a strong correlation for increaded risk. Some 63% more likely to commit suicide so I could understand how there might be a connection with homelessness. Something about being disenfranchised does not sit well with service members.
There could be mental health, drug and alcohol, or other issues contributing to the suicide and maybe the homelessness problem as the study did not take any other factors into consideration. I think it would be wise to stratify this research based on reasons for the homelessness as the OTH seems more of predictive indicator than the source of the problem.
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2211891
There could be mental health, drug and alcohol, or other issues contributing to the suicide and maybe the homelessness problem as the study did not take any other factors into consideration. I think it would be wise to stratify this research based on reasons for the homelessness as the OTH seems more of predictive indicator than the source of the problem.
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2211891
Risk of Suicide Among US Military Service Members Following Deployment
This retrospective cohort design uses administrative data to examine the association between deployment and suicide among all 3.9 million US military personnel who served during Operation Enduring Freedom or Operation Iraqi Freedom, including suicides that occurred after separation.
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC David S., After rethinking my post I can see the correlation. I was thinking about a friend that wasn't homeless and not on drugs, decided one day he'd had enough and set his house on fire and shot himself in the head. I have had several discussions with several homeless vets, that are trying to become more productive. But, I think all of them were discharged honorably or they couldn't be in the VA system.
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These people are accountable for their behavior, no one else. As SGT (Join to see) says what about the other 90% "that are beating the odds," In the civilian world, if you commit a crime and its on your record, it's going to be difficult to get a job, because you displayed traits that were irresponsible. I won't enable irresponsibility, when I know the system was fair.
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SGT (Join to see)
Most of the homeless vets I have been in contact with are doing their best to become part of society. They are homeless, been on drugs, but aren't now, live in a VA sponsored homeless shelter, and have given up drinking and drugs, which is mandatory, and learn what they have to do to get a job. Some of them were kicked out of their service, but are trying hard to become respected.
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SGT (Join to see)
I've long suspected that the military, particularly the Army (and I'll discuss that shortly) has a habit of giving OTH or worse (BCD and DD) discharges to "problem" members rather than getting to the root of the problem, which is often PTSD.
I don't know how many veterans I've read about who have been documented as having PTSD, whether it was diagnosed before or after they left the service, who have died of overdosing/suicide because they self-medicate, can't hold down a job, and/or are homeless. Further research has revealed that some of these people received adverse discharges.
Now I'll explain why I said the Army. In almost all of the stories I've read, the service member seems to be a former Soldier. A lot of times these guys would have 1 or more combat deployments. After return from deployment the problems seem to start. The drinking, drug use, DUI's, insubordination to Officers/SNCO's, etc. Sometimes these guys would get sent for a mental health evaluation, sometimes they wouldn't. I also noticed that if they went to an Army shrink, they would say, "There's nothing wrong with this guy" and the Soldier would get kicked out. Yet these same Soldiers were diagnosed with PTSD by civilian psychiatrists. See the problem yet?
Military shrinks were only interested in "Is this guy stable enough to deploy again? If not, and he has a history of misconduct let's kick him out instead of getting them the help they need..." A civilian shrink comes along and says "Hey, I think this guy has PTSD and maybe his discharge should be upgraded so they can get help. The military broke them so they should be responsible for helping them..." but the military says "Civilian, you don't know what you're talking about..."
Of course, there are always the few people who "slip through the cracks" and should never have joined/made it through Boot Camp in the first place and get what they deserve.
I've long suspected that the military, particularly the Army (and I'll discuss that shortly) has a habit of giving OTH or worse (BCD and DD) discharges to "problem" members rather than getting to the root of the problem, which is often PTSD.
I don't know how many veterans I've read about who have been documented as having PTSD, whether it was diagnosed before or after they left the service, who have died of overdosing/suicide because they self-medicate, can't hold down a job, and/or are homeless. Further research has revealed that some of these people received adverse discharges.
Now I'll explain why I said the Army. In almost all of the stories I've read, the service member seems to be a former Soldier. A lot of times these guys would have 1 or more combat deployments. After return from deployment the problems seem to start. The drinking, drug use, DUI's, insubordination to Officers/SNCO's, etc. Sometimes these guys would get sent for a mental health evaluation, sometimes they wouldn't. I also noticed that if they went to an Army shrink, they would say, "There's nothing wrong with this guy" and the Soldier would get kicked out. Yet these same Soldiers were diagnosed with PTSD by civilian psychiatrists. See the problem yet?
Military shrinks were only interested in "Is this guy stable enough to deploy again? If not, and he has a history of misconduct let's kick him out instead of getting them the help they need..." A civilian shrink comes along and says "Hey, I think this guy has PTSD and maybe his discharge should be upgraded so they can get help. The military broke them so they should be responsible for helping them..." but the military says "Civilian, you don't know what you're talking about..."
Of course, there are always the few people who "slip through the cracks" and should never have joined/made it through Boot Camp in the first place and get what they deserve.
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SGT (Join to see)
That's about right PO1 John Miller, The kids volunteer to serve and then crapped on when the Army decides they're no longer any good to them. Piss poor leadership and command. Tagging them with LTH or kicking them out when they know the troop has PTSD, and has done nothing wrong, is chicken shit.
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You appear to be mixing "risk factor" with causation. The study isn't saying the discharge leads to homelessness. It says that bad conduct discharges are a strong indicator of future homelessness.
This makes complete sense since most of the guys discharged like this have significant mental and behavioral issues that made them unfit for service. Where the problem lies is in how those mental health issues were acquired. Combat trauma, chemical exposure, whatever, has been demonstrated to lead to problematic behavior that should probably be considered when evaluating eligibility for benefits.
This makes complete sense since most of the guys discharged like this have significant mental and behavioral issues that made them unfit for service. Where the problem lies is in how those mental health issues were acquired. Combat trauma, chemical exposure, whatever, has been demonstrated to lead to problematic behavior that should probably be considered when evaluating eligibility for benefits.
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I can see how that would happen. If the misconduct is due to not being willing to do what you're told, that won't get better in a civilian environment. That can lead to unemployment, and homelessness.
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SGT (Join to see)
I probably misspoke PO1 Aaron Baltosser, when I said I don't believe that the veterans discharged OTH, leads to homelessness and suicide. It makes sense that it would, but if they are trying to make something of themselves and fail that, I don't see any other option than suicide. If they're unemployed and homeless, I don't know how they would get drugs and alcohol.
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PO1 Aaron Baltosser
People thay have drug and alcohol issues are very creative in how they get their drug of choice. Having worked in a treatment facility that dealt with both, I can tell you firsthand they were master manipulators in getting what they wanted in order to get their next drunk or high. Sometimes theft was involved to fund it.
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Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that this makes sense. People discharged in other than honorable conditions have some kind of problem to have received such a discharge. Therefore I don't find it a conflict to see that they also run into trouble in civilian life. And as previously stated the problems may well be compounded by the stigma of there discharge making it even harder to find work and to adjust.
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Keith, this does seem to make sense to me because of the embarrassment of failure . They obviously would not want to meet up with anyone they knew who would ask them any questions about what happened? Ya, I can see it.
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SGT (Join to see)
I can see where that would be a reason. I've never been there so it's hard for me to understand. If they were booted out with OTH, because of being in trouble all the time, I don't understand how they got in because they were probably not worth a crap when they went in. Do they still do "the go to jail or join the military " thing?
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Sgt David G Duchesneau
Ya, it all depends on where and who you are. I just had a client whose 17 year old got into trouble and the lawyer made a deal with the Court and the kid went into the Air Force instead of being found Guilty and doing Jail time. ? WTF-right? Yes Keith, it still happens!
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SGT (Join to see)
That may explain why they stay in trouble when they're in the service. It's got to be the reason for some of the problems.
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