226
226
0
I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
Army Reserve Elements
NCOs
Leadership
Career Counselor
Career Advice
Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 168
3
3
0
No, you were correct the CSM was totally wrong. It should have went to the CO on charges. Semper Fi
(3)
(0)
3
3
0
I did have an individual with one stripe when i was a SSgt decide not to obey a lawful order I gave Him, I removed Him from post, had Him turn His weapon in and informed Him He will not be returning to work unless directed by the Commander or First Sergeant. I made it clear to the Commander and First Sergeant I had no use for Him and didn't want Him back. The Commander not only backed Me but a second stripe He was going to get the orders were cancelled, the one stripe He had was taken all from an Article 15. In addition was not only removed from duty but also the career field. He was the only one in My 22 years of military service that ever did that and no way was I going to put up with it.
(3)
(0)
3
3
0
I will get straight to the point. I had a similar situation and I had to charge the Marine, I used the UCMJ in the way in the way it was meant to. You can't save a rotten apple from going bad but you can get ride of it so the other apples don't follow suit and go bad also. The pen is a mighty weapon when dealing with 'Knuckle Heads'.
(3)
(0)
3
3
0
Your CSM is a pussy and a weak leader. Fuck him. Write the NCO up for insubordination and failure to follow a direct order. If he gives you shit, take him to the tree line. If the CSM and any brass don't support you, take it over their heads. And keep taking it over their heads. Reserve, National Guard, Active Duty...doesn't matter. Rank is rank and orders are orders, If you let this slide, it will only go down hill from here. And not just with that NCO. Word will get out you're a punk and everyone will start disrespecting you. I used to tell my squad, fear or respect. Make your choice but you will have one of the two. My preference is respect but at the end of the day the results will be the same either way.
(3)
(0)
3
3
0
Suspended Profile
Maybe even pull out a voice recorder or a cell phone recording and then tell him too do it
3
3
0
Hard to say without going over the NCO's past history of behavior but I will say you're in for a rough road if he continues this behavior with the CSM's stance on the matter.
Documentation and witness statements going forward might be necessary.
Documentation and witness statements going forward might be necessary.
(3)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
I hear you. I'm planning on transferring soon anyway. It's time to move on for career progression.
(1)
(0)
2
2
0
LOL, I hung out with my father too long in his office, NCO's and around officers. Picked up a BUNCH of things ;0)
(2)
(0)
2
2
0
That is insubordination, disrespect for your superior ranking NCO's & Officers, verbal explicatives & verbal abuse, no honor at ALL.
Here goes you some ammunition:
Army Regulation 600-20 provides that inappropriate superior-subordinate relationships are prohibited if they:
1. Compromise, or appear to compromise, the integrity of supervisory authority or the chain of command;
2. Cause actual or perceived partiality or unfairness;
3. Involve, or appear to involve, the improper use of rank or position for personal gain;
4. Are, or are perceived to be, exploitative or coercive in nature;
5. Create an actual or clearly predictable adverse impact on discipline, authority, morale or the ability of the command to accomplish its mission.
Here goes you some ammunition:
Army Regulation 600-20 provides that inappropriate superior-subordinate relationships are prohibited if they:
1. Compromise, or appear to compromise, the integrity of supervisory authority or the chain of command;
2. Cause actual or perceived partiality or unfairness;
3. Involve, or appear to involve, the improper use of rank or position for personal gain;
4. Are, or are perceived to be, exploitative or coercive in nature;
5. Create an actual or clearly predictable adverse impact on discipline, authority, morale or the ability of the command to accomplish its mission.
(2)
(0)
SSG James Mielke
Indeed. Unfortunately, Part-Timer units (Reserve and Nat. Guard) are very much like that. It happens in Active units too, but is greatly off-set by they typical 3 year rotation that happens.
(0)
(0)
2
2
0
As an E-5 Reservist who was also prior active, you were absolutely NOT wrong by any stretch! Being a Range Safety certainly does not preclude you from showing proper customs and courtesies, especially toward senior NCO's. Old fashioned? Not by a long shot. If one does not expose unacceptable behavior and contempt for subordinates - how will that fare in a forward operating area, or combat? Frankly, this Range Safety needs a little 'old school' corrective action.
(2)
(0)
2
2
0
HUH....Regulations......
I Think I'd Just HAVE To Stand Him On His Head & POUND Him Into The Ground,
Until All You'd See, Are The Soles Of 2 Brogans Sticking Up Just Below The Grass Line.
WTF Is THAT About? ~ Mouthing Off To A Superior & STILL Having Teeth Remaining In His Mouth?
SURE Is Different Now Than When Guys MY Age Were Serving....
1961 - 1965, The Years Of The Dinosaur Killers
I Think I'd Just HAVE To Stand Him On His Head & POUND Him Into The Ground,
Until All You'd See, Are The Soles Of 2 Brogans Sticking Up Just Below The Grass Line.
WTF Is THAT About? ~ Mouthing Off To A Superior & STILL Having Teeth Remaining In His Mouth?
SURE Is Different Now Than When Guys MY Age Were Serving....
1961 - 1965, The Years Of The Dinosaur Killers
(2)
(0)
2
2
0
I have had many situations similar to this in both the regular army and ARNG. I won't go into great detail, but you did the right thing all the way up to the front leaning rest. Especially since you are dealing with an NCO. Pen to paper is the best way to handle these things. Having the LT there was good, because you have a witness to the situation. I hoped you would have briefed the LT before confronting the Sgt. Chain of command is very important. I would have taken it to the 1st Sgt before going to the CSM. For some reason AGR soldiers sometimes think they are immune to orders given by higher ranking M-day soldiers. I was in HHB I Corp Artillery when I retired. The AGR's tend to be a small group from ranks ranging from E-4 to O-9. During the week they are buddies and unfortunately it bleeds over into the drill weekends. Fortunately, my command was very professional in my last years, and those things were not tolerated in the slightest. My earlier guard years they were. The adjustment from RA to Reserve took some getting used to. You still have the ability to write up that E-5. Those counseling statements go into their permanent record and there isn't a thing the CSM can do about it. If your LT is a good platoon leader, then he should have your back.
(2)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
Thanks for your reply. In my situation, I am in the 1sg position, though we are a small detachment. The next up from me is a MSG, and they are good buddies, and he wasn't there that weekend. The CSM was the next up in the chain.
Just to update, the SGT and I had a talk a couple months later to clear the airway. There's no bad blood between him and I. I do feel like I learned a valuable lesson and that is to be prepared with paperwork, regardless of the outcome. I know I did the right thing by briefing my LT prior and getting his okay. I probably should have avoided talking to the CSM and went straight to paper at that point. You live, you learn.
Just to update, the SGT and I had a talk a couple months later to clear the airway. There's no bad blood between him and I. I do feel like I learned a valuable lesson and that is to be prepared with paperwork, regardless of the outcome. I know I did the right thing by briefing my LT prior and getting his okay. I probably should have avoided talking to the CSM and went straight to paper at that point. You live, you learn.
(2)
(0)
SFC David Pope, MBA
Mistakes are learning opportunities. I have had a LOT of learning opportunities in my day. I am glad things worked out for you. Never let emotions control you, and you will be a top-notch leader. Another one from my BNCOC and ANCOC days is, "Act, don't re-act." You control the situation, not the other way around. Hooha!!
(0)
(0)
SGT James Hunsinger
SSG (Join to see) - We all make mistakes, I made a truck load of them during my career. I was medically discharged as an E-5P after 13 years in the Army but my mos was so NCO top heavy that was just the nature of the beast. I was an acting PLT SGT for almost a year before being discharged. I loved my job, I loved leading soldiers. But I sure made my fair share of mistakes, including a wall to wall counseling session that I should not have performed. There were no witnesses and I had an old school NCO support channel. I got reamed in private for it by my PLT SGT, 1SG AND CSM but they couldn't dispute the results. My trouble child became super trooper after that. I wouldn't suggest that in today's Army though. I shouldn't have gotten away with it when I did really but that was 26 years ago and I still had some old school folks above me. The soldier was constantly telling my troops he could kick my ass, blah blah blah. So one day, after he had been doing it again, I told my Asst SQD LDR to take the rest of the squad back to the barracks. I took off my shirt, told him if he wanted to put his money where his mouth was, lets go. He took a swing, I dodged it and choked him out. Waited till he came to, helped him up and asked him if that was the end of the shit talking? He said yes. I told him, water under the bridge lets go get lunch. Word got around but he always denied it to anyone in the chain of command while still becoming an outstanding soldier. So there was never anything official that happened. I still view it as a bad mistake on my part though.
Some people, you can't get through to any other way but today they would rather you just show them to the door with paper work. I believe each soldier is a different puzzle to figure out.
I am glad to hear you resolved the issues with the E-5 though.
Some people, you can't get through to any other way but today they would rather you just show them to the door with paper work. I believe each soldier is a different puzzle to figure out.
I am glad to hear you resolved the issues with the E-5 though.
(1)
(0)
2
2
0
There is little doubt in my mind that if what has been described is the standard of discipline within the US Army, then we are truly defeated already!
I am a retired USMC Gysgt and if a Sgt talked to me in that manner or refused to clean a rifle he had fired, I would simple have sent him the the company office, gone in to see the company commander and would have put that miserable little turd under charges of disrespect, insubordination, and any other thing I could think of! Should the Company Commander not back me 100% (that not going to happen in the Marine Corps), I would immediately request mast to the battalion commander, and if he did not back me, the Regimental Commander would be the next step!
I once had a Marine Sgt back talk me and found myself with a company commander who stood exactly where he should have, Reduced to Corporal, 30 days pay were his penalty! Tough learning lesson for one stupid jerk who thought way to much of himself!
Little problem with him afterwards because I really wanted L/cpl, 3months pay, but the jerk was married and I backed off for his families sake!
PLEASE REMEMBER, this is the same POS that will tell his Plt. Sgt to go F himself when he's told to take out that enemy emplacement!
YOUR IN A BAD COMMAND, AND YOUR COMMAND SGT MAJOR IS A BLITHERING POS IDIOT!
I sincerely pray that this represents only you Doggies, for if the Marine Corps has gone down that same road, there is absolutely NOTHING standing between the United States of America and our enemies!
Gysgt Rick Roy
USMC RET.
I am a retired USMC Gysgt and if a Sgt talked to me in that manner or refused to clean a rifle he had fired, I would simple have sent him the the company office, gone in to see the company commander and would have put that miserable little turd under charges of disrespect, insubordination, and any other thing I could think of! Should the Company Commander not back me 100% (that not going to happen in the Marine Corps), I would immediately request mast to the battalion commander, and if he did not back me, the Regimental Commander would be the next step!
I once had a Marine Sgt back talk me and found myself with a company commander who stood exactly where he should have, Reduced to Corporal, 30 days pay were his penalty! Tough learning lesson for one stupid jerk who thought way to much of himself!
Little problem with him afterwards because I really wanted L/cpl, 3months pay, but the jerk was married and I backed off for his families sake!
PLEASE REMEMBER, this is the same POS that will tell his Plt. Sgt to go F himself when he's told to take out that enemy emplacement!
YOUR IN A BAD COMMAND, AND YOUR COMMAND SGT MAJOR IS A BLITHERING POS IDIOT!
I sincerely pray that this represents only you Doggies, for if the Marine Corps has gone down that same road, there is absolutely NOTHING standing between the United States of America and our enemies!
Gysgt Rick Roy
USMC RET.
(2)
(0)
GySgt Lloyd Beckford
I agree with you Rick, request mask to the 3 star if needed, disrespect is disrespect and it should never be tolerated. Bad CSM, that is why some are saying "the service is going to hell in a hand basket"
(2)
(0)
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
I Served Just 4 Years USAF ~ 06/29/1961 (my 17th Birthday)~ To 06/10/65 ~
When I DD-214'd Out From Osan AFB, South Korea; And It Amazes Me How Shiken Chit Our Military Has Become; Even In Basic The T.I.'s Have So Many Restrictions Imposed Upon Them, WHY Fa-King Bother? ~ It's Turned Into A Girl Scout Camping Trip.
When I DD-214'd Out From Osan AFB, South Korea; And It Amazes Me How Shiken Chit Our Military Has Become; Even In Basic The T.I.'s Have So Many Restrictions Imposed Upon Them, WHY Fa-King Bother? ~ It's Turned Into A Girl Scout Camping Trip.
(0)
(0)
2
2
0
Best of luck in getting this sorted out. I think you're on the right track.
(2)
(0)
Suspended Profile
You should tell his first line leader or whoever can give the dude a counseling statement. Start there . Don't just run your mouth without evidence.
1
1
0
YOU, as a SSG and his immediate NCOIC should have verbally smacked him all the way back to Reception Station.
The CSM should have backed you up and glorious amounts of paperwork should have ensued.
It did not happen that way, young Buck Sergeant basically punked you out and now you have to figure what and how to do next.
If you were truly "old school", a wall-to-wall counseling should have happened, especially after the CSM seems to have failed at his job.
You basically have two choices, find another unit or fix the one you got.
Part-timer units are notoriously difficult to change because there is always shitloads of good-old-boy going on. Fathers and sons, uncles and nephews and damn near every NCO is related to each other and they have all been there since high school.
Good Luck.
The CSM should have backed you up and glorious amounts of paperwork should have ensued.
It did not happen that way, young Buck Sergeant basically punked you out and now you have to figure what and how to do next.
If you were truly "old school", a wall-to-wall counseling should have happened, especially after the CSM seems to have failed at his job.
You basically have two choices, find another unit or fix the one you got.
Part-timer units are notoriously difficult to change because there is always shitloads of good-old-boy going on. Fathers and sons, uncles and nephews and damn near every NCO is related to each other and they have all been there since high school.
Good Luck.
(1)
(0)
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
EXACTLY ~~ There Are Many Time When We Need To Grab A 2 X 4 And Wrap Them In The Back Of Their Head, And THAT'S Just To Get Their Attention, NOW We Can Chew Them Out.
(0)
(0)
1
1
0
Were you wrong in attempting to bring a shitbird into line ? Not at all. That's why we have Sr NCOs. To lead.
Going to the CSM ? Sorry, you did escalate too quickly. This should have been brought to Tops attention. It is, after all, his company. Every one of those troops is his or her responsibility.
Plus, 1st shirts are pretty damn good at researching a problem. We don't know what's going on in this E5s personal life. Should it have caused a problem on the range ? Absolutely not. But it may have.
The Job description of a CSM is not to correct Jr NCOs. CSM should not have corrected you in front of a subordinate. So there were serious missteps here but it is the reserves, that's going to happen.
You 1st shirt is a company level Bishop in this chess game. An incredibly powerful piece that can be a game changer.
To be serious. Youight need to rethink your strategy in the future, as any good chess player would do.
Going to the CSM ? Sorry, you did escalate too quickly. This should have been brought to Tops attention. It is, after all, his company. Every one of those troops is his or her responsibility.
Plus, 1st shirts are pretty damn good at researching a problem. We don't know what's going on in this E5s personal life. Should it have caused a problem on the range ? Absolutely not. But it may have.
The Job description of a CSM is not to correct Jr NCOs. CSM should not have corrected you in front of a subordinate. So there were serious missteps here but it is the reserves, that's going to happen.
You 1st shirt is a company level Bishop in this chess game. An incredibly powerful piece that can be a game changer.
To be serious. Youight need to rethink your strategy in the future, as any good chess player would do.
(1)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
You're right, I believe I did escalate too quickly. However, at the time I was acting 1sg. Not my normal roll as I was new to it at that time and I think I was feeling the pressure. The CSM was the next up in my chain and I talked all the steps over with the LT prior to me even approaching the SGT in question. We discussed best and worst case scenarios and we agreed that if he went against the grain, I should bring it up the the CSMs attention. I feel like the LT should have flexed some of his position, but we live from our experiences.
That all happened several months ago and he and I have since talked it out and both understand our mistakes and now have a good working relationship. I have also worked with the CSM privately and we both have a better understanding of each other's Leadership styles. It's interesting how things work out sometimes.
That all happened several months ago and he and I have since talked it out and both understand our mistakes and now have a good working relationship. I have also worked with the CSM privately and we both have a better understanding of each other's Leadership styles. It's interesting how things work out sometimes.
(3)
(0)
SPC Kynthia Rosgeal
SSG (Join to see) oops, didn't see that in your original
In the end. You did right with your follow up. Kind of the mark of a great NCO, learning from your mistakes and not afraid to learn. And now you have a superior to tap for experience. This started as an oh fuck and became an attaboy.
In the end. You did right with your follow up. Kind of the mark of a great NCO, learning from your mistakes and not afraid to learn. And now you have a superior to tap for experience. This started as an oh fuck and became an attaboy.
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
.
Have You Not Been Shown The Proper Method Of Using The Butt Of A Rifle ?
"Mouth Off 1 -2, Mouth Off 3-4 , Mouth Off Again 1-2-3 - 4 "BAM" !!... TEETH LOST!!
Have You Not Been Shown The Proper Method Of Using The Butt Of A Rifle ?
"Mouth Off 1 -2, Mouth Off 3-4 , Mouth Off Again 1-2-3 - 4 "BAM" !!... TEETH LOST!!
(1)
(0)
Suspended Profile
David Petraeus on Strategic Leadership | http://belfercenter.org/PetraeusStrat...
Because there are two sides to every story, I'm responding to your question "with reservation." Based on your side, I think your approach wasn't escalated prematurely, it was just applied to the wrong E5. Personally, I possess what GEN Petraeus refers to as an "adaptive" leadership style. As a leader, we must know what style will bring the best out of each individual under us and then apply that style to the individual. If it was me, as soon as I smelled arrogance and belligerence, I would have transitioned to more of a "listener" role because that's what that particular E5 needed, to be heard. Regardless of UCMJ, rank structure etc. we are all human beings first, Soldiers second, so we can't expect all to respond the same way to the old school "shut up and stand at parade rest" approach. Figure out which approach is required to bring the best out of each subordinate. Take a look at the below video. (0.00 - 1.35).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnjuB6cxdGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnjuB6cxdGw
0
0
0
Incidentally, I'm old school as well. This ordeal should have never happed the way it did. That soldier was totally out of line disrespecting his senior NCO. Stick to your way of schooling soldiers under your leadership. Also, at the same time be very mindful of all individual soldier's mind-process thinking. It seems like many individual's now-a-days are one step away from being loose cannons waiting to be ignited.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
-
Ask questionGet expert advice and
tips for your questions. -
Post updatePost pictures, personal updates, plans, or anything you like!
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google