Posted on Apr 5, 2015
What are your thoughts on the Combat Action Badge, and it becoming retroactive to 1941?
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The Combat Action Badge was created in 2005 to honor those who'd engaged or been engaged by enemy forces during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan but weren't eligible for similar awards available to medics or infantrymen.
It was made retroactive to Sept. 18, 2001, but since shortly after its founding, lawmakers and veterans groups have pushed to send it back much farther — to the outbreak of World War II.
As Maneuver Support Soldier, I know support personal (like Aviation, Engineers, MPs, Truck Drivers, etc. (in addition to our Medics who accompany maneuver forces) are often also directly engaged in close combat along side of our infantry and armor brothers. So, the CAB made sense to me, to accompany the CIB and CMB.
Despite the frenzy that ensued, and discussions of "CAB hunters," I still believe this is an important award, especially for MOSs like MP and Engineers.... who, as an example, during the surge in Iraq were rivaling our combat arms brothers in daily combat casualties.
I was personally shot at more and returned fire more in Somalia, than Iraq. So, this being retroactive also makes sense.
I think this is a good idea, and deserved, however, the logistics of doing this will be overwhelming.
Before you CAB naysayers chime in... Consider COP Keating... Those guys were not 11Bs. They were scouts and armor crewmen. 2 MOHs and many other medals were awarded there. 8 Soldiers were killed and many were wounded. Does not that merit such an award? There are many others like it.
What are your thoughts?
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/04/combat-action-badge-retroactive/25235333/
It was made retroactive to Sept. 18, 2001, but since shortly after its founding, lawmakers and veterans groups have pushed to send it back much farther — to the outbreak of World War II.
As Maneuver Support Soldier, I know support personal (like Aviation, Engineers, MPs, Truck Drivers, etc. (in addition to our Medics who accompany maneuver forces) are often also directly engaged in close combat along side of our infantry and armor brothers. So, the CAB made sense to me, to accompany the CIB and CMB.
Despite the frenzy that ensued, and discussions of "CAB hunters," I still believe this is an important award, especially for MOSs like MP and Engineers.... who, as an example, during the surge in Iraq were rivaling our combat arms brothers in daily combat casualties.
I was personally shot at more and returned fire more in Somalia, than Iraq. So, this being retroactive also makes sense.
I think this is a good idea, and deserved, however, the logistics of doing this will be overwhelming.
Before you CAB naysayers chime in... Consider COP Keating... Those guys were not 11Bs. They were scouts and armor crewmen. 2 MOHs and many other medals were awarded there. 8 Soldiers were killed and many were wounded. Does not that merit such an award? There are many others like it.
What are your thoughts?
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/04/combat-action-badge-retroactive/25235333/
Awards
Badges
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 75
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They do it for medals, why is a badge any different when it comes to the awards process? LOL @ red tape issues!
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Hmm. Let's recap: You serve(d) in the Armed Forces of the United States. You presumably received incoming fire and maybe even returned said fire. I think that's called doing your J-O-B. Of course if we stopped giving awards for simply doing what is (or should) be expected how could we ever recruit new trainees or retain senior officers/NCOs? Or just maybe we would recruit/retain those with a true desire to selflessly serve a cause higher than themselves.
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As an employee of the Department of Veteran Affairs, I have another perspective that many may not have thought of.
Combat badges are used as a determinant as to whether or not an injury - particularly, PTSD - is service-related. If we retroactively hand out CABs without some sort of criteria to validate actual combat, we will either remove that as a suitable criteria or open up VA Comp to hordes of Veterans who never saw direct action.
This needs to be thought through if implemented, and I think CSM Michael J. Uhlig has as good a place to start as any.
Having said that, isn't this a solution in search of a problem? Excuse me if I have not heard the hew and cry from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vets looking for a badge decades after the fact.
Combat badges are used as a determinant as to whether or not an injury - particularly, PTSD - is service-related. If we retroactively hand out CABs without some sort of criteria to validate actual combat, we will either remove that as a suitable criteria or open up VA Comp to hordes of Veterans who never saw direct action.
This needs to be thought through if implemented, and I think CSM Michael J. Uhlig has as good a place to start as any.
Having said that, isn't this a solution in search of a problem? Excuse me if I have not heard the hew and cry from WWII, Korea, and Vietnam vets looking for a badge decades after the fact.
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my rage goes through the roof when i read this kind of remf gobbledygook. SPEND THE MONEY ON LIFESAVING, BATTLE WINNING TRAINING AND EQUIPMENT!! not on merit badges and px warrior crap. look at the marines. you get a ribbon. thats it. you dont walk around wearing all that crap. get rid of it. get rid of the rainbow ribbon. all that. look in their file. all that money could be saved and spent on buying ar10's so our troops are killed by stupid roes that enable the tali to sit back with pkms and drop hails of bullets on us. spend that money on brm and battlefield drones that provide overwatch so the enemy cant ambush our patrols. pull your head out of your vain ass and quit playing in the mirror with your dress up swamp thing dandy crap. no one really cares about your patches. can you do pt? can you actually fight? are you doing something better today than yesterday to get your troops home and not maimed by animals in some caveman run s hole? no, youre yapping about uniforms and haircuts and forms. kick you all out and start over.
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There are plenty of support personnel who have been put in harm’s way. Back in the 80’s with the terrorist activity in Europe Regan authorized purple hearts for those injured in the bombings.
Would everyone who served in the EU during these times then get the CAB? Lot’s of questions…
Would everyone who served in the EU during these times then get the CAB? Lot’s of questions…
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I always thought the Combat Patch, was enough. The Army certainly seems to be the "everyone gets a trophy" service. As an example, look at the Marine Corps' different dress uniforms. So clean, with the Eagle Globe and Anchor emblem on the collar, ribbons, skill and qualification badges, & ribbons, that's it. Not the Army, we are festooned with unit crests, green tabs, DUI's, US and Branch insignia, and a combat patch emblem on the pocket. Now getting back to the CAB, which is a modern rip-off of the German (Nazi) Army's close combat badge from World War II, which is a K98 bayonet and a potato masher hand-grenade, with a wreath, which was awarded for, yes, you guessed it, close combat, eye-ball to eyeball fighting. As you know, the CAB is the modern M9 bayonet, along with a M67 Hand grenade, with a wreath. The CIB is a musket. Why we didn't go with a musket bayonet and a flaming bomb to match the CIB I'll never know. The funny thing is, 90% of troops that get the CAB, never touch a hand grenade in combat, and are rarely issued a bayonet (too dangerous / expensive, Joe or Josephine might cut themselves or their buddy, or they might lose it and have to do a statement of charges or a FLIPL, best to keep them in the arms room). No, the CAB should be either a musket bayonet and flaming bomb, or maybe what most soldiers have in their hands when they earned the badge...a steering wheel. As far as retroactively awarding it, I'd say go back as far a the start of OEF.
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Some would think that I am off my rocker, but yes it should be retroactive to WWII. I would also compare this award to the Navy/MC Combat Action Ribbon and the AF Combat Action Medal.
For those of you that are crying foul, you should study the history behind the Army Awards system. When you do this take a look at the awards and awards process prior to 1900, the period between 1900 and 1916 (MOH Review Board), the WWI awards period, and the WWII awards period. Then take a look at the more current changes and reviews of the awards system that have and have tried to correct inequalities in that system. One historical item that you should consider in the debate, is that at one point when there were only two awards available that the one award was limited to PVTs, no NCOs or Officers allowed, the other award was all ranks. You should also take a look at your own complaints about the award system and your reasoning behind your complaints. One example that you should think about and look at are the current complaints about 'undeserved' awards based on rank and or position. Though I believe that there is some validity about the complaint about the politically correct type statements about everybody gets a trophy / award syndrome.
For those of you that are crying foul, you should study the history behind the Army Awards system. When you do this take a look at the awards and awards process prior to 1900, the period between 1900 and 1916 (MOH Review Board), the WWI awards period, and the WWII awards period. Then take a look at the more current changes and reviews of the awards system that have and have tried to correct inequalities in that system. One historical item that you should consider in the debate, is that at one point when there were only two awards available that the one award was limited to PVTs, no NCOs or Officers allowed, the other award was all ranks. You should also take a look at your own complaints about the award system and your reasoning behind your complaints. One example that you should think about and look at are the current complaints about 'undeserved' awards based on rank and or position. Though I believe that there is some validity about the complaint about the politically correct type statements about everybody gets a trophy / award syndrome.
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COL Charles Williams
Hooah. SSG Robert Webster Most Infantry guys think it is BS. Tankers, not so much - think they more than any pushed for it. I have mentioned many times about things I seen and heard about awards, and in every war/conflict you can find examples of commanders who failed to maintain the fidelity of the system, and cheapened many awards, where as others were too strict and awarded few. Not just the CAB, the CIB, and many other awards, medals etc. Awards do vary by rank in both wartime and peacetime based on rank, which really means level and scope of responsibility; awards for valor would be the exception. Units and commanders vary in their application of the rules, policies and regulations. I learned a lot about this from first PSG... who did several tours in Vietnam, and had several purple hearts... As long as we have had awards, there have been equity issues.
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I have always thought the Combat Action Badge was something that is just another decoration and something to pacify those crying about Infantry soldier getting an CIB and Medical getting an CMB. Now I want an EAB because I was in and trained to be in action. I think Clothing Sales is really happy.
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COL Charles Williams
EAB? MSG Brad Sand Thanks. I believe the CAB was/is great, and was needed, as many others provide direct support to Infantry and Fight. Desert Storm is a great example... the Tankers and Scouts destroyed most everything before the Infantry (in trail) arrived... But, they all got CABs, but the Tankers and Scouts got a warm handshake. I know as a career MP (except for 3 years in Armor), MPs fight, not that they are just around fighting, or get ambushed - they fight.
The problem with the CAB, like all awards, is they fidelity, or lack there of, of the system. Commander's have to ensure this, or it cheapens the award, all awards. Commander's are also the ones that create the problems.
I have a CAB, and I wear it proudly. I know the circumstances, I received it, and I know in places before Iraq, we were directly engaged by the enemy, and returned fire and destroyed the enemy.
I sent this to SGT (Join to see) in reference to the CAB being retroactive (on fidelity, or lack there of).
1. May first PSG, G Troop 2/6 Cav, Vietnam Vet. Two tours in the Vietnam as a Cavalry Scout with 113s and he even new the 114 (that would be fun to have around the house). He story was this, as he was explaining the concept of awards, and how they handled. He first served in 11th ACR, and had a several vehicles shot out from under them (his words). He got a Purple Heart on that tour. That was all. He his next tour was as a Scout with 1st ID. He said the entire time he was there, he never saw the enemy, and when left (out-processed) he received a BSM and a CIB, which he said appeared to be the 1ID parting gift.
2. Fast forward to Desert Storm. The lead elements were ACRs and 24th ID, and largley Tanks, with Bradley's etc in trail for safety... It was a Tank Battle after all. The Tankers and Scouts who killed most of the enemy (direct fire kills), got nothing. I had friends in the Infantry, and by the time they arrived the lead elements had defeated most resistance. Several Divisions awarded the CIB by battle roster, not based on individual action. I heard of Commanders who said, they were giving out as many combat awards as they could, as this may be the only opportunity. The 3rd AD was the worst - everyone gets a trophy.
3. Commanders and CSMs are the ones who need to keep fidelity in the system, but not all do. My last Brigade Commander and CSM in Iraq (I was the DBC) were crazy strict with the CAB.... We even had Infantryman in our Brigade, but since they were doing an MP mission, the only combat award (badge) they could get was the CAB... which they hated... and while it made sense, it also didn't make sense on some levels.
Edit
The problem with the CAB, like all awards, is they fidelity, or lack there of, of the system. Commander's have to ensure this, or it cheapens the award, all awards. Commander's are also the ones that create the problems.
I have a CAB, and I wear it proudly. I know the circumstances, I received it, and I know in places before Iraq, we were directly engaged by the enemy, and returned fire and destroyed the enemy.
I sent this to SGT (Join to see) in reference to the CAB being retroactive (on fidelity, or lack there of).
1. May first PSG, G Troop 2/6 Cav, Vietnam Vet. Two tours in the Vietnam as a Cavalry Scout with 113s and he even new the 114 (that would be fun to have around the house). He story was this, as he was explaining the concept of awards, and how they handled. He first served in 11th ACR, and had a several vehicles shot out from under them (his words). He got a Purple Heart on that tour. That was all. He his next tour was as a Scout with 1st ID. He said the entire time he was there, he never saw the enemy, and when left (out-processed) he received a BSM and a CIB, which he said appeared to be the 1ID parting gift.
2. Fast forward to Desert Storm. The lead elements were ACRs and 24th ID, and largley Tanks, with Bradley's etc in trail for safety... It was a Tank Battle after all. The Tankers and Scouts who killed most of the enemy (direct fire kills), got nothing. I had friends in the Infantry, and by the time they arrived the lead elements had defeated most resistance. Several Divisions awarded the CIB by battle roster, not based on individual action. I heard of Commanders who said, they were giving out as many combat awards as they could, as this may be the only opportunity. The 3rd AD was the worst - everyone gets a trophy.
3. Commanders and CSMs are the ones who need to keep fidelity in the system, but not all do. My last Brigade Commander and CSM in Iraq (I was the DBC) were crazy strict with the CAB.... We even had Infantryman in our Brigade, but since they were doing an MP mission, the only combat award (badge) they could get was the CAB... which they hated... and while it made sense, it also didn't make sense on some levels.
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To all! Ask those veterans who served on the Korean DMZ from 55 to 91 what it is like to be forgotten! And I am talking ALL MOS's!!!!! Very few ever got any type of combat awards for actions that happen there!!!!
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