Posted on Feb 7, 2015
1SG David Lopez
235K
1.43K
750
93
89
4
635586630760396023 arm ranger school women 1
Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.

 

 

Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez

Paso Robles, CA
Avatar feed
Responses: 240
PO1 S4 Logistics Clerk
1
1
0
I think if those 5 female officers were able to withstand just a taste of the actual school, then maybe they'll be able to complete the assessment in April. Heck even if it's less than the original 5, that's still progress. I understand that females are not as strong as males, however there are still females who can break this stereotype. Maybe you should stop being critics and instead support your fellow Soldiers. However I think until more females go through this course, the real passing rate will show. Not much can be said from just one group.
(1)
Comment
(0)
LTC John Wilson
LTC John Wilson
11 y
Until we change the fundamental built of the female soldier, there is no way she will complete successfully one on one against a male (with some exceptions of course) soldier. Why is it when the truth is made know, males are bashed for not supporting females, and unless we fall into line with the politically correct, we are bias?
(0)
Reply
(1)
LTC John Wilson
LTC John Wilson
11 y
When active, I supported all my troops, gave them at a boys, and at a girls, for their efforts. I advised and counselled many on ways to improve themselves. I am 200% FOR THOSE THAT TRY TO BE THEIR BEST. However, I don't support those that want a little extra attention and are not up to standards. I work with them to bring up their efficiency level and prepare them for being the best they can be.
(0)
Reply
(0)
PO1 S4 Logistics Clerk
PO1 (Join to see)
11 y
Sir, in no way shape or form am I saying women deserve more encouragement than their male counterparts. However this negative attention towards women wanting to join special warfare is a bit sexist. All I'm saying is that we as a species continue to evolve. I firmly believe that their will be a time when the female component of the human race will finally be equal in strength to the male component. Perhaps this theory is closer than we think.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SGT Headquarters Platoon Sergeant
SGT (Join to see)
11 y
Mr. Wilson, these incredibly intense schools are not for the norm, they are for the exception - that exception that you readily admit exists. They are for the exception among male soldiers, and now the Army is saying, among female soldiers as well.

They are for exceptional SOLDIERS, regardless of gender.

Are female Ranger candidates going to be in the top 10% of potential Ranger candidates, or the top 10% of Rangers if they graduate? No, probably not.

Why does that matter? The bottom 1% of Ranger candidates are still exceptional, and they are still Ranger candidates. The bottom 1% of Ranger-qualified soldiers are still leaps and bounds above the average soldier, and they are still Ranger-qualified soldiers.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Zachary Brooks
1
1
0
Same standards it is good. Cherry picked women to look good, this is bad.

Be interesting to see when it becomes open season for female candidates.
(1)
Comment
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
11 y
Cherry picking might be a good idea for the first few sets honestly.

What is Ranger Prep but (pardon the phrase) but weeding the field to make sure that people are qualified for Ranger School.

For any school that has a Physical requirement, don't we check to make sure that the person can meet that requirement before they can go? The tougher the requirement.... The more I would stack the deck. Especially when you have limited slots.

Now don't get me wrong, this can create issues, but it can also eliminate issues.

Cherry picking answers the question "Is it feasible for (some) women to pass the course?" definitely. If you send hand selected, good candidate women, and they can't pass the course at the existing standard, the question is just answered. What it doesn't answer is "What % of women would be able to pass the course, normally?" and "What is the ratio of men to women?"
(2)
Reply
(0)
LTC John Wilson
LTC John Wilson
11 y
Yes, and believe it or not, there was never a need for Ranger, Special Forces, Marine Infantry School, and Seals, or Air commandos, until women attempting to attend these courses. Then they made it a competition between men and women instead of looking at it as qualified soldier on the battlefield. The carnage would be quite dramatic in another ground war with any other nation. Especially if they become prisoners of war.
(2)
Reply
(0)
SGT Headquarters Platoon Sergeant
SGT (Join to see)
11 y
CPT Zachary,

I believe the cherry-picked candidates are an unfortunate necessity to acclimate the military, and the school, to the reality that female soldiers will be attending it in the future.

These cherry-picked candidates will undoubtedly still be incredibly capable soldiers in their own right, even if they do happen to fail out of the school. Even in lasting more than a day in Ranger school, they've surpassed what an overwhelming majority of their male fellow soldiers have done, in that regard.

These cherry-picked candidates are necessary so that when it finally comes time to open up OMLs for Ranger School to female soldiers, that the internal affirmative action to select them is minimized, and that they are truly picked based on merit and performance.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Processing Nco
1
1
0
I'm curious what the percentage is for non-combat MOS's. Not MOS bashing, but I am curious if there is a substantial gap between combat arms and support MOS's. If support has a lower completion rate then you can knock their odds down a little. But hey, if they pass to the same standards as males, congrats.
(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Arcc (Army Reserve Career Counselor)
1
1
0
I honestly believe that this is a situation that needs to be studied over a greater period of time than the short period of time we have had since these changes were impliented. There are alot of outside influences that are going to effect those numbers. For example, for many of the men they have been prepping to attend Ranger School for years, for these females it has only been a possibility for a short period of time. The way I see it is those 19% that completed Ranger School whatever hard number that is have accomplished an amazing task. One that I believe I myself could not accomplish, even though I am in fact a man.
(1)
Comment
(0)
LTC John Wilson
LTC John Wilson
11 y
They passed pre-ranger training no Ranger school. No women has passed Ranger school to date.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SFC Arcc (Army Reserve Career Counselor)
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
Well that being the case, I guess there isn't much arguement for either side. The young ladies are being provided a fair oppertunity to compete and attempt to become a Ranger, and those who beileve that young ladies should not be Rangers have no arguement as no one has made the standard to do so.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Jim Z.
1
1
0
I agree with PV2 Abbott Shaull not bad for the first cycle and if they are being held to the same standard and only 55% of the men passed that is saying something.
(1)
Comment
(0)
CPT Senior Instructor
CPT (Join to see)
11 y
Keep in mind that the women that went were hand selected and vetted. Males don't go through such a process. If they did I think they would have a much higher rate.
(1)
Reply
(0)
CSM Brigade Operations (S3) Sergeant Major
CSM (Join to see)
11 y
If as a leader you are sending any Soldier to Ranger school without "vetting" them you are setting them up for failure. If you can't get a slot to RTAC you better have a home station pre-ranger course set up to prepare those Soldiers. At minimum the battalion should run a light leaders course.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
1
1
0
Edited 11 y ago
I believe we're at 0 out of 26 women on the USMC Infantry Officer Course now TSgt Joshua Copeland if that provides any insight.

I can't compare the Ranger Prep to the IOC, however let's just assume both courses had a baseline that was "gender neutral" but established on a male level.

The fact that you have 5 women passing Ranger Prep is probably a good sign, and as the first class, I'll "assume" they are being VERY cautious about lowering the baseline standard.

The real question is total pass rate through Ranger.
(1)
Comment
(0)
SSG John M.
SSG John M.
11 y
And I know we have had Devil Dogs as Chief I was just speaking Army to the LT my bad
(0)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
11 y
We had a non-infantry. As Aviators are not a gender restricted MOS (like infantry are), that opens up the CMC billet.

CMC is one of our 4 Star Billets. We have 3-4 (depending on whether we are the sitting CJCS).
(0)
Reply
(0)
LTC John Wilson
LTC John Wilson
11 y
Any female with sound military record can be appointed as Chairman/woman of the Chiefs of staff. There is nothing preventing that except politics.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
11 y
LTC John Wilson Absolutely, what I meant was that the "artificial (political) barriers to entry" have been crumbling before our eyes in very recent history. The CMC being a an Air Winger, and the CJCS being a Marine just highlights the walls disappearing.

Had you asked a Marine 20 years ago if we would see a Non-Infantry CMC, they would probably give you the stink eye. Asking if we would see a Marine CJCS would get the same response.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1LT W. Ashford
0
0
0
Honestly, the defense of the nation takes all..we should embrace the reality that actually battlefield soldiers will one day be obsolete..hopefully in my life time and until then all who answer the call should have equal access and opportunity to compete for the highest levels of training and proficiency. Hooah!
Sua Sponte RRD
W
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Print Journalist
0
0
0
As a woman veteran, I agree with 1Sgt Lopez in his assessment and opinion of women attending Ranger School. When I served as a patrol officer in the Military Police in the 1970s, I came to realize that type of duty was not an appropriate role for a woman nor an asset to the team.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
0
0
0
1SG David Lopez Scary ! You said what Ranger was really about ! Well said ! Your eloquent statement made my evening!

It is nice that you are retired and do not have to conform to the new standard as the rest of the military and the world is compelled to!
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Don Williams, CBCP
0
0
0
As long as there is NO degradation of standards, NO female-specific accommodations, then more power to them.

Unfortunately, I know RIs from the first round of female Ranger candidates and they stated unequivocally that the standards were lower. If that’s true, then it’s a disservice to the candidates and graduates alike.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close