Posted on Mar 21, 2014
What is the best way for a new 2LT to counsel a platoon sergeant?
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One of the biggest challenges for a brand new 2LT is his first counseling session with a SFC who has been in the Army from 8-14 years. While the blanket list of duties that I used in 1995 is pretty straight forward, I don't think it's conducive to building the team necessary to effectively lead a platoon from the get-go. What have you seen that works best?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 101
Personally, I think that the 2LT should use the PSG for what they are; a valuable source of information that could not find anywhere else.
When I finally get my chance to be a PSG (aside from acting, etc.) I will probably counsel my PL on what I expect from them, whether written or orally. Simply tell them, "this is what I expect from you. [insert list here]."
When I finally get my chance to be a PSG (aside from acting, etc.) I will probably counsel my PL on what I expect from them, whether written or orally. Simply tell them, "this is what I expect from you. [insert list here]."
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LTC (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) It is always good to do that, but one of the best things that you can do is hand that young PL a list to say here is what I think you should expect from me, then allow him to expand off of that.
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COL (Join to see)
As long as it's a two way street. The new PL isn't going to know a lot, but he will have ideas. Even if they aren't on point, they need to be addressed and "bracketted." They may not be a good idea, but a good platoon sergeant doesn't just say, "that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard," even if it is. At some point, that PL will have 18 months under his belt and will have the capability to point a finger and say, "Go." It's best to form him properly as a team first...and that requires continual team building and trust.
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As a retired Navy senior enlisted I find it unfathomable that someone at the Platoon Sergeant level be counseled by an O-1 and an utter leadership failure of the system that promoted him to that level, not to mention the failure of his peers to straighten out the soup sandwich.
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CW4 Brian Haas
But he is a PLATOON Sergeant...being counseled by a PLATOON LEADER. It is exactly who should be counseling him, as that is his direct supervisor. Company commanders and battalion commander are a bit busy to have to worry about counseling every NCO in their formation. This is nothing new. A good company commander should be mentoring the PL on doing this, too...otherwise when does an officer gain experience? There's always gonna be an NCO that has been there longer. Each signed up for their job and level of responsibility. Suck it up or make a change. OCS, WOCS, etc...
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COL (Join to see)
CW4 Brian Haas, you hit it on the head. If an E7 doesn't like being counseled by an O-1, there's a couple things he can do about it. 1) Pack your crap and get out. 2) Pack your crap and become an officer. Now...there's good and bad ways to counsel, which is what this thread is about. As officers in the Army, SCPO Ron Chandler, we are expected to lay out the purpose and requirements to our subordinates in counseling...otherwise they won't know what their boss expects. Now...there are some better ways of doing that as a 2LT, but it doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of doing it.
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SCPO Ron Chandler
I see your points and it works for your service, not in the Navy I guess. I do remember from my years AD Army that the leadership models between them and the Navy were vastly different. Nothing wrong with either one, both superbly support mission accomplishment.
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COL Charles Williams
I will chime in again... First, I will say that NCOs are the life blood of our Army, and my Regiment; we are Squad Based Branch. That said, I have had to counseling Platoon Sergeants as a Platoon Leader for substandard performance, a 1SG as a Company Commander for substandard performance, a Command Sergeant Major as a Battalion Commander, and I had one of my Command Sergeants Major at Brigade level relieved for hitting on female Lieutenants... Only one person is responsible in the Army.
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SGT Jason McVey
Let the PSGT and the squad leaders do what they do. Don't try and fix a problem if there isn't one to fix. Ease your way into it as a PL.
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COL (Join to see)
SGT Jason McVey, you get the "close to the worst comment" award on here...at least from me. Read the rest of my comments to find out why. You have to. It has to be done. There are ways to do it right. That's what the thread is about. That LT is in charge, whether NCO's like it or not. I've relieved one NCO in this Squadron for the kind of attitude you are displaying there. He was a self righteous douche who thought that his experience meant that he was better than his PL...in every way...and he undermined everything that they could have done. Their platoon failed. When it did, I ensured that he wouldn't have the opportunity to poison any officer or unit ever again.
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May I suggest this:
"Excuse me , could you help me with this counseling I have to do with SFC Snuffy. This is my first counseling and I don't want to come off as cocky or disrespectful."
In other words, practice, be respectful, and if necessary, ask for help from someone that has been through it before.
I always practice what I want to say to anyone (doesn't matter if it is a person of higher rank or not or even a civilian) because I have a tendency to come off a cocky even though it sounds fine to me.
"Excuse me , could you help me with this counseling I have to do with SFC Snuffy. This is my first counseling and I don't want to come off as cocky or disrespectful."
In other words, practice, be respectful, and if necessary, ask for help from someone that has been through it before.
I always practice what I want to say to anyone (doesn't matter if it is a person of higher rank or not or even a civilian) because I have a tendency to come off a cocky even though it sounds fine to me.
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COL (Join to see)
<P>SSG Hasbun, I expect every leader to "counsel," no matter what their rank. It's not an option...it's mandated. If we're doing the right things, we don't chose which ones. The question is HOW to go about it, since the belief you are sharing is exactly the reason why a new 2LT can't just write a counseling statement and tell a PS what to do...in my opinion. I think it's almost like a contract. Something that's agreed upon. Maybe on a white board. "Hey PS, let's talk. Write down what you think you do on one side and write down what you think you need a PL to do." Then, there should be a two way discussion about what they want to accomplish as a TEAM. That PL is in charge, but he's a fool if he walks in like he owns the place. I will hold them both responsible for failure and praise them both for success. I think that teamwork counseling or modified "marriage counseling." is the best way to go about it, but wanted to hear if there were other tried and true methods.</P>
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PO3 Michael James
I would have to follow Direct Order.. However, if it were my butt, I would probably stay next to the platoon sergeant !! (OUCH)
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Interesting question that has brought a lot of good answers. I was a VMI educated civil engineer, combat engineer officer, Airborne Ranger whose father was a Command Sgt Mjr who had been commissioned in WWII in Italy. My mother was in the Army in WWII. I grew up on Army posts and naturally respected senior enlisted men.
First thing I did was never ever use the word "counsel" when it related to a platoon sergeant. I was no shy retiring flower, but I knew I didn't know my ass from first base when it came to actual soldiering. I knew I couldn't "counsel" a platoon sergeant with 10+ years in the service. I was a green 2nd Lt. Know who you are.
My father had counseled me that the second I ever received an order from the company commander to go to my plt sgt alone, tell him the order, and discuss it.
Remember the engineers are usually building floating bridges, crossing rivers, building fortifications, fighting like infantry, blowing stuff up, building air strips, operating heavy equipment, and doing something that had a little bit of technique to it.
I would ask the platoon sergeant, "Ever done this before?"
He would then tell me the hundreds of times, the tens of different units, and the different continents and whether it was in peacetime or combat. I would listen respectfully.
Then, I would ask him, "What's the best way you've ever seen it done." Maybe I had the humility to ask the right way, but by doing that I got the platoon sergeant's fingerprints on the murder weapon. I also acted like a team player, not a know-it-all ring knocker.
Then, when we did it, I praised those who did a great job in person and we debriefed thereafter. We talked about what went well, what did not go so well. I did not counsel the platoon sergeant. I debriefed the team.
We did things like cross the Imjin and bridge the Rhine.
Being a know nothing 2nd Lt platoon leader is a terminal condition. It took me six months, but I learned my craft and still did it the same way. Just like I always used the 5-paragraph field order for all the time I was in the Army.
It sounds corny to say, but it was always about my stealing my platoon sergeants' experience. I used them to learn my trade. In return, I shot straight with them. They shot straight with me.
I used some Socratic method, "What do you think went wrong today?" Learned that at VMI.
When I was a little salty, I exerted my power, but I never let anybody see the boot marks. One day in Korea, we were taking out minefields up by the DMZ. It was cold, icy, wet. I made the platoon get on their bellies and probe. Talk about being an unpopular asshole. Cold as Hell.
The platoon sergeant encouraged me to let the men use the mine sweepers. I said, "No. The ground might be frozen in some places and I don't trust those mine sweepers." Something just didn't feel right.
The unit next to me managed to get a few men killed when they were using mine sweepers and missed some mines. It was a horrific mess.
That night the platoon sergeant found me and said, "You made the right call, sir. I wanted you to know that. Thank you."
I have always thought that was the day I actually became a platoon leader. Up until then it was his platoon and I was a novitiate. After that, I was the platoon leader and he did everything possible to make me a better one.
You have to park the ego in the military and focus on the results. I think maybe it's easier in the combat engineers because so much is mission oriented.
Thanks for listening. Always respect and listen to men who have more experience than you do until you become one of them. God bless the combat engineers. God bless the Army. God bless America. And, God bless you.
Out.
First thing I did was never ever use the word "counsel" when it related to a platoon sergeant. I was no shy retiring flower, but I knew I didn't know my ass from first base when it came to actual soldiering. I knew I couldn't "counsel" a platoon sergeant with 10+ years in the service. I was a green 2nd Lt. Know who you are.
My father had counseled me that the second I ever received an order from the company commander to go to my plt sgt alone, tell him the order, and discuss it.
Remember the engineers are usually building floating bridges, crossing rivers, building fortifications, fighting like infantry, blowing stuff up, building air strips, operating heavy equipment, and doing something that had a little bit of technique to it.
I would ask the platoon sergeant, "Ever done this before?"
He would then tell me the hundreds of times, the tens of different units, and the different continents and whether it was in peacetime or combat. I would listen respectfully.
Then, I would ask him, "What's the best way you've ever seen it done." Maybe I had the humility to ask the right way, but by doing that I got the platoon sergeant's fingerprints on the murder weapon. I also acted like a team player, not a know-it-all ring knocker.
Then, when we did it, I praised those who did a great job in person and we debriefed thereafter. We talked about what went well, what did not go so well. I did not counsel the platoon sergeant. I debriefed the team.
We did things like cross the Imjin and bridge the Rhine.
Being a know nothing 2nd Lt platoon leader is a terminal condition. It took me six months, but I learned my craft and still did it the same way. Just like I always used the 5-paragraph field order for all the time I was in the Army.
It sounds corny to say, but it was always about my stealing my platoon sergeants' experience. I used them to learn my trade. In return, I shot straight with them. They shot straight with me.
I used some Socratic method, "What do you think went wrong today?" Learned that at VMI.
When I was a little salty, I exerted my power, but I never let anybody see the boot marks. One day in Korea, we were taking out minefields up by the DMZ. It was cold, icy, wet. I made the platoon get on their bellies and probe. Talk about being an unpopular asshole. Cold as Hell.
The platoon sergeant encouraged me to let the men use the mine sweepers. I said, "No. The ground might be frozen in some places and I don't trust those mine sweepers." Something just didn't feel right.
The unit next to me managed to get a few men killed when they were using mine sweepers and missed some mines. It was a horrific mess.
That night the platoon sergeant found me and said, "You made the right call, sir. I wanted you to know that. Thank you."
I have always thought that was the day I actually became a platoon leader. Up until then it was his platoon and I was a novitiate. After that, I was the platoon leader and he did everything possible to make me a better one.
You have to park the ego in the military and focus on the results. I think maybe it's easier in the combat engineers because so much is mission oriented.
Thanks for listening. Always respect and listen to men who have more experience than you do until you become one of them. God bless the combat engineers. God bless the Army. God bless America. And, God bless you.
Out.
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Why would someone with that many years service need counseling? Is that the right word to use for what sounds like building up repor as a unit or putting the man in his place? I'm grouchy tonight so I'm taking the negative. Maybe he needs to just stand there and listen. If he learns something, he won't stay a 2Lt forever.
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As a platoon sergeant (with more experience), I always let my new 2LT’s practice on me first. After that, I asked for permission to speak. I would say, “Sir, you and I have to take care of this platoon!” I always had a great relationship with the LTC’s, Majors, and CO’s. They would give me tips and guidance on how a particular LT. What’s best is that they are accountable for their position. I come from the “Old School,” so some of you know what I mean when I say, “ You gotta do what you gotta do!” God Bless you all!
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COL (Join to see)
Must be an airforce thing. I've seen the same response from the Air Force twice now.
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MSgt Carl Stokes
COL (Join to see) - not really, Ive got plenty of Army time too, Ive read your responces and some are on point , but others lean to that ol "Im an officer, and Im better than you" And that is exactly where the problem whould be in this situation. Just like not every PLT SGT is good, their are some real sack of shit incompotant PLT LDRS too. We each have a job to do that should be enforced by a mutual respect, without that there will be issues, and the bottom line is the Army doesnt move without NCO,s.
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