Posted on Aug 16, 2017
What is the most appropriate way to address someone being given a false PT score, while minimizing the damage to their career?
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Apologies for my terrible English. Here is the question broken down and explained in what I hope is in better terms.
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
The situation is that a soldier was given a false pt score by a previous NCO for whatever reasons that he had. The soldier has now changed duty stations and was promoted to Sgt rank. She has not been pinned yet but took a diagnostic pt test and failed the pt test. Now the question is being raised about her really having a 300 pt score and she is scared and has been scared to say anything about the changing of her records. My question is what can she do as for this to not effect her career in a negative way? Especially in light of her not declining the promotion. I do understand that myself knowing what is going on and not saying anything can put me in the same boat as her. I know the wrong answer is to not say anything but what's the best way to go about doing something if anything to minimize the amount of damage done to her or multiple people's careers?
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 244
Falsifying a record to achieve monetary benifit should be dealt with immidiately as criminal. Investigate immidiately. Integrity must be kept in US Army.
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Going by what you said, she already told on herself by not coming close to the 300 pts from previous APFT. Failing the following one says it all, unless she all of a sudden got injured, you didn't say anything about any injuries
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Let's do an initial pft to see if you can still do 300 cause corporal course or no school is going to be impressed. So were taking the top pfters and see where they sit so after the promotion we can get them in a bit quicker to school. Play it that way it's not forcing anyone. But just a recheck and involve others who were top and pormoteable. To assure it is not a fluke. I had to prove I could do pullups for First Sgt. Since I was minimum on pullups to be a LCPL. No shame in proving if you can do it. Or have her suction as a whole do an initial pft. We had them all the time besides at Marines were always ready to do it for promotion. RAH!
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Man up, come clean about the false score. And decline the promotion. Integrity will earn her more support than lying.
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Step 1. Invent time machine.
Step 2. Use time machine to travel to moment before the decision was made to conspire to defraud the Army and violate Army values.
Short of that, the "SGT," needs to contact JAG for a legal opinion and options.
I'm not certain that you have a legal obligation to report this, it's the moral dilemma that you need to work through.
Step 2. Use time machine to travel to moment before the decision was made to conspire to defraud the Army and violate Army values.
Short of that, the "SGT," needs to contact JAG for a legal opinion and options.
I'm not certain that you have a legal obligation to report this, it's the moral dilemma that you need to work through.
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You have no role since she is in another unit now. Your previous role would have been to speak up when it occurred. You should in fact identify the person who assisted her and let your unit take care of that issue. She is wrong, as is the person who supported this act in her records prior to her PCS move. The good news is that she failed and will not be pinned if she does not pass. If her 1SG is in there job, he or she will realize their was something hokey with records and contact the losing unit, and from there connect the dots and bring about a fair and equitable solution for all who were complicit, including you. It does not take a genius to figure out that someone who recently scored 300 should not fail a subsequent test. What you may want to do to help your friend and you to get ahead of this is to tell her to come clean on the other side.
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A great leader motivates. A good manager, organizes. I cannot say that this person is a good manger or organizer because the soldier obviously failed to plan for the APFT. I also cannot say that this soldier is a good leader either, because there appears to already be a lack of confidence from those concerned. From experience, I watched 15 people at Fort Hood all receive article 15s and rank reductions for cheating on their education records to score points under the old promotion system. I can tell you that your soldier not only deserves to lose rank, but also deserves to receive an article 15. What this soldier did was take a promotion away from an otherwise already qualified solder. Integrity means doing the right thing even when no one is watching. This does not mean that this soldier cannot bounce back. Some of the best leaders I've known in the Army have been demoted at least once, and these folks learned from the error, bounced back, and came out even stronger because of it. If you are looking for a way to whitewash this, you too are running the slippery slope of failing as a manager and a leader. Always remember one thing, no one fires or demotes a soldier. The soldier fires or demotes themselves.
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She committed a fraud on everyone between her actual score and what was recorded. At a minimum she should lose the current promotion and on more stripe. The turd who lied for her, he needs to be fully investigated to see what favors he took from her, and then get a Big Chicken Dinner.
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Put the turd back in her pocket. This is her mess to clean up. If she doesn’t do the right thing, then she is the turd and flush her. No integrity; no promotion. Simple.
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CPL,
As a CSM I ran into this with some of my FTUS (Full timers). I caught them doctoring their own test one day out back of the unit bldg. Having been given a heads up on this I had only one response, write them up, formally counsel them and pass this own to my JAG for Article 15 actions. Sorry to say that I have no need for anyone Soldier and especially an NCO that has no integrity or inclination to not have the courage to say no to such things. The Soldier's actions of failing to correct the wrong for whatever reason doesn't enter the equation. If she full well knew what was done she should have fixed then and reported it to her Superior. The military has a hard enough in the Reserve and Guard with APFT failures, this is worse. Deal with it or you comprise your integrity as a Leader by not correcting it!
CSM(R) Vincent
As a CSM I ran into this with some of my FTUS (Full timers). I caught them doctoring their own test one day out back of the unit bldg. Having been given a heads up on this I had only one response, write them up, formally counsel them and pass this own to my JAG for Article 15 actions. Sorry to say that I have no need for anyone Soldier and especially an NCO that has no integrity or inclination to not have the courage to say no to such things. The Soldier's actions of failing to correct the wrong for whatever reason doesn't enter the equation. If she full well knew what was done she should have fixed then and reported it to her Superior. The military has a hard enough in the Reserve and Guard with APFT failures, this is worse. Deal with it or you comprise your integrity as a Leader by not correcting it!
CSM(R) Vincent
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Wow, that's a tough call...but only speaking for myself, I would do the honorable thing and just suck it up and say something because that is how I was brought up and that is Honor with the Army...we "shouldn't" lie, cheat nor steal. She has to look at herself every day in the mirror.....
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I never could understand why people would pencil whip their PT scores, just stay in shape. Even today, after nearly 8 years of retirement, I can still max my push ups and sit ups. While I still run, I would need some time to get my run time down to an acceptable (for me) time. A habit I started in college during ROTC, I would do three sets of 30 push ups and sit ups each morning. I would knock out 30 push ups, roll over and do 30 sit ups and repeat two more sets. Takes about 5 minutes today to do my sets.
When I was in an AC/RC position and let senior officers and NCOs take their own PT tests in small groups, I was amazed at the amount of soldiers that returned with a stack of PT cards, but on a June Saturday morning, were bone dry. At least come back sweaty and look like you just finished a run. I had one major throw a fit when a second group of majors show up bone dry with PT cards. Her group looked like a typical group of soldiers that just finished a PT test. The other group claimed they had just returned from Doughboy Field (the PT field), but she said her group was just there and they did not see the second group. I told that group to try again.
An easy way to double check a PT test is by run time. If a soldier just wants to do the minimum 180 points with 60 in each event, it is easy to stop when the grader calls out the exact number of repetitions required for your push ups or sit ups. Just get to that number and stop. But if your run time is 18:20 (for example) and your PT run time is exactly 18:20, you are extremely good, very lucky or you pencil whipped the score.
If you came in one second late at 18:21, you'd have scored 59 points and failed. If you ran maybe 5-6 seconds faster, you would have scored 61 points, one more than you needed.
Also, I was an avid runner, running about 35-40 miles a week, competing in 5k and 10ks and an occasional half marathon. I knew who was faster than me and who wasn't. Bring me a PT score card that is better than my 2 mile run time and you look like you can't run to your car without getting winded, I'm going to question your results.
When I was in an AC/RC position and let senior officers and NCOs take their own PT tests in small groups, I was amazed at the amount of soldiers that returned with a stack of PT cards, but on a June Saturday morning, were bone dry. At least come back sweaty and look like you just finished a run. I had one major throw a fit when a second group of majors show up bone dry with PT cards. Her group looked like a typical group of soldiers that just finished a PT test. The other group claimed they had just returned from Doughboy Field (the PT field), but she said her group was just there and they did not see the second group. I told that group to try again.
An easy way to double check a PT test is by run time. If a soldier just wants to do the minimum 180 points with 60 in each event, it is easy to stop when the grader calls out the exact number of repetitions required for your push ups or sit ups. Just get to that number and stop. But if your run time is 18:20 (for example) and your PT run time is exactly 18:20, you are extremely good, very lucky or you pencil whipped the score.
If you came in one second late at 18:21, you'd have scored 59 points and failed. If you ran maybe 5-6 seconds faster, you would have scored 61 points, one more than you needed.
Also, I was an avid runner, running about 35-40 miles a week, competing in 5k and 10ks and an occasional half marathon. I knew who was faster than me and who wasn't. Bring me a PT score card that is better than my 2 mile run time and you look like you can't run to your car without getting winded, I'm going to question your results.
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Why is someone who is willing to submit a false PT test score to get a promotion careers worth saving?
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I am a retiree, and a former inspector general. I recommend someone contact the inspector general at her current chain of command to investigate this situation. The soldier is definitely at fault if she had knowledge of the false PT test. However, the bigger problem is the NCO who gave her the test. That individual’s career should be stopped in its tracks, and no one in the current chain of command has any authority over that NCO. The IG can reach across multiple installations, conduct a professional investigation, and most importantly document findings in a permanent database. The grader’s career should stop in its tracks. They may not get discharged, but may not receive another promotion when a centralized board conducts a records screening.
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As a soldier as a human being total and rigorous honesty, is critical. no other option.
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CPL, best wishes in this. It's a touchy subject.
You aren't allowed to call out a 300+ APFT female when she fails...that's sexist.
You aren't allowed to call out a 300+ APFT female when she fails...that's sexist.
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This is a ongoing situation these days. When I served, I was the Command PT Coordinator and failed personnel consistently. What happened next was to see this person transfer to another unit and get promoted and when I brought this up the higher ups, somehow it got changed in the computer system by Administration. I'm glad I had hard copies (paperwork) that justified my suspicion that someone is changing failures to passing scores. Needles to say I resigned my position at PT Coordinator that I wasn't going to be part of unethical conduct especially when I'm out there busting my ass to make sure I had a good passing score to lead by example. I think this happens in all branches of service. Now that I'm retired, I hope that it get better but I don't think it will change especially if they have a buddy in Admin. Best advice is stay ethical and if you or someone is given a false score, speak up immediately and be true to yourself and your Branch of Service. Thanks for reading my thoughts on this subject.
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