Posted on Oct 1, 2015
What is the proper way of dealing with Senior NCOs as a Junior Officer?
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What is the proper way of addressing and dealing with Senior/Staff NCOs who are on the verge of insubordination to ones who are down right belligerent as a Junior officer?
I have felt with many Senior/Staff NCOs throughout my career and have seen many have a distain for Junior Officers it doesn't matter if they are new to the military or are mustangs. It just seems like they feel they are better then them and because of their experience or time in service they seem to feel that they do not need to listen to a Junior Officer. In my personal experience I have seen some of these NCOs "protected" by CPTs or Field Grade Officers. Now I know in the true order of things where I sit in the hierarchy of the military, and though I outrank all enlisted and warrant officer ranks I now that they have an inherent authority based on their positions such as a Sergeant Major etc... and due to the fact I have no command authority even as a PL. How would I or any other Junior Officer handle these individuals when they are truly out of line or bordering it?
I have felt with many Senior/Staff NCOs throughout my career and have seen many have a distain for Junior Officers it doesn't matter if they are new to the military or are mustangs. It just seems like they feel they are better then them and because of their experience or time in service they seem to feel that they do not need to listen to a Junior Officer. In my personal experience I have seen some of these NCOs "protected" by CPTs or Field Grade Officers. Now I know in the true order of things where I sit in the hierarchy of the military, and though I outrank all enlisted and warrant officer ranks I now that they have an inherent authority based on their positions such as a Sergeant Major etc... and due to the fact I have no command authority even as a PL. How would I or any other Junior Officer handle these individuals when they are truly out of line or bordering it?
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 61
When I checked into my first command as a 2ndLt, our Company 1stSgt was, how should I say, a little "problematic." Seemed he hated Lt's. As we were forming for a Company PT, his disdain for young officers was made apparent. It wasn't exactly his words. Rather, it was his tone. He repeatedly said "Lieutenant" as if it were a taboo swear word. After the morning run I caught him on the way back to his office. Asked for a moment of his time in private. We retreated to his office. I shut the door and I directly explained to him the following:
1.) He was out of line with his tone.
2.) The younger Marines looked to him for leadership and example.
3.) Without rolling over and showing my belly, I explained to him that I wanted (and needed) to learn how to be a good officer. And that HE was an integral part to my development.
I think I had to appeal to "the professional" Marine that he espoused to be. His disposition immediately changed. Problem solved.
Bottom Line: You're a 2ndLt. Your going to make a few mistakes. Don't be afraid to be the butt of the conversation. But, when it comes to dealing with senior NCO's, identify the problem, and enlist their seasoned guidance for a solution. My feeling is most SNCO's would prefer to "make" good lieutenants... especially those with whom they must work.
1.) He was out of line with his tone.
2.) The younger Marines looked to him for leadership and example.
3.) Without rolling over and showing my belly, I explained to him that I wanted (and needed) to learn how to be a good officer. And that HE was an integral part to my development.
I think I had to appeal to "the professional" Marine that he espoused to be. His disposition immediately changed. Problem solved.
Bottom Line: You're a 2ndLt. Your going to make a few mistakes. Don't be afraid to be the butt of the conversation. But, when it comes to dealing with senior NCO's, identify the problem, and enlist their seasoned guidance for a solution. My feeling is most SNCO's would prefer to "make" good lieutenants... especially those with whom they must work.
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LTC John Wilson
I've usually kept the borderline "insubordinate" NCOs closest to me. If they posssess the stones to stand up to me and kick me in the shins when I need it, then (a) I know they care and (b) I might just learn something important. The GOOD NCOs will keep you one track.
On those occassions where you have a Senior NCO who's merely being a jerk, you should first grant some deference to his experience, seek to understand -- and when they are in the wrong -- don't blow your stack. Instead, explain the facts of life (making sure you clearly understand them), let rhem know you expect candor and seek to learn and understand, but an NCO of his grade and experience should know better than to treat a commissioned officer disrespectfully. If an appeal to his professionalism is insufficient, take the matter to his supervisor.
On those occassions where you have a Senior NCO who's merely being a jerk, you should first grant some deference to his experience, seek to understand -- and when they are in the wrong -- don't blow your stack. Instead, explain the facts of life (making sure you clearly understand them), let rhem know you expect candor and seek to learn and understand, but an NCO of his grade and experience should know better than to treat a commissioned officer disrespectfully. If an appeal to his professionalism is insufficient, take the matter to his supervisor.
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CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter
Its the job of Senior NCOs to help train JR officers not to show them up.
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SGT Christopher Combs
Capt. Strobl that was weel said and 1st. SGT. shouldn't be treating Lt's like shit just because you're new. You should be learning from your E-6's and E-7's to begin with but I do realize you still have a lot to deal with when it comes to your 1st SGT.
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I would make the following suggestions. One, dont give them an excuse, be on top of your game. You are new to the Army and the learning curve is straight up, but you are under more of a microscope now, than you will be at my age/rank. Two, when the problem happens, address it directly and with force (look them dead in the eye and ask, not yelling, what is your freaking problem and do you need remedial help in getting over it?).
I say these two, because it sounds like these people are expecting you to make a mistake and then when you do, wanting to take advantage of it. We dont need disrespect on our team.
I say these two, because it sounds like these people are expecting you to make a mistake and then when you do, wanting to take advantage of it. We dont need disrespect on our team.
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Jokes happen.
Disrespect shouldn't.
Mentoring young officers is one of the most important things senior NCOs do. The Army views it as so important, it assigns a senior NCO to officers in leadership positions all the way to the Chief of Staff.
You'll never hear me commend this behavior.
Smart officers listen to their NCOs. We didn't get to where we are by accident. I strongly suggest that you stand up for yourself and go out of your way to establish a professional and productive relationship.
They are testing you. Pass the test - but do it your way.
Disrespect shouldn't.
Mentoring young officers is one of the most important things senior NCOs do. The Army views it as so important, it assigns a senior NCO to officers in leadership positions all the way to the Chief of Staff.
You'll never hear me commend this behavior.
Smart officers listen to their NCOs. We didn't get to where we are by accident. I strongly suggest that you stand up for yourself and go out of your way to establish a professional and productive relationship.
They are testing you. Pass the test - but do it your way.
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LT
You ask an age-old question. I can tell you that many of your future successes will be because of NCOs. Every successful commander got to where he is because some NCO mentored him. However, like all groups, there are a few bad apples. Here are some thoughts.
1) Make sure you leave your ego at the door. You are in a position to learn and listen. Don't throw a fit if you don't get saluted. Give the respect you are seeking.
2) Develop a good relationship with your Battalion/Squadron CSM. He WANTS you to succeed. He has the ear of your senior rater. The shitheads rarely get to CSM (although there are exceptions).
3) Set a strong work ethic example. Like a pledge in a frat, you are getting tested and evaluated daily. Work hard to be the best PL and take care of your Soldiers. You live in a fishbowl. Everyone is watching what you do or don't due.
4) If nothing works, bypass the obstacle and keep moving forward. Others will notice the poor NCO eventually.
Good luck and thanks for stepping up and wearing the cloth of our great nation.
COL Robert Gaudsmith
You ask an age-old question. I can tell you that many of your future successes will be because of NCOs. Every successful commander got to where he is because some NCO mentored him. However, like all groups, there are a few bad apples. Here are some thoughts.
1) Make sure you leave your ego at the door. You are in a position to learn and listen. Don't throw a fit if you don't get saluted. Give the respect you are seeking.
2) Develop a good relationship with your Battalion/Squadron CSM. He WANTS you to succeed. He has the ear of your senior rater. The shitheads rarely get to CSM (although there are exceptions).
3) Set a strong work ethic example. Like a pledge in a frat, you are getting tested and evaluated daily. Work hard to be the best PL and take care of your Soldiers. You live in a fishbowl. Everyone is watching what you do or don't due.
4) If nothing works, bypass the obstacle and keep moving forward. Others will notice the poor NCO eventually.
Good luck and thanks for stepping up and wearing the cloth of our great nation.
COL Robert Gaudsmith
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A SNCO needs to remember which way the salute goes. No matter the rank, the lowest 2LT out ranks me. After saying that, the biggest thing is TEAM, and the officer needs to remember a good NCO will make or break his/her command, so it goes both ways. A true member of the team will not belittle another member of the team, especially in front of the troops. On the other hand, as a young 2LT, you need not let your "officer" side get the best of you. If your a mustang, then address the fact to the NCO and let him/her know the score. Once each of you know where the other stands, then the learning and team work can continue.
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Had a 1LT who used to get disresepcted constanly by the 1SG. 1SG would refer to him as "hey guy" or "knuckle head" etc when the disrespect was completely unwarranted since the LT was a fine executive officer and Soldier. Finally the 1LT had to take the 1SG aside and say something to the extent of, "look I know you've been in the Army for a while but that doesn't mean you can disrespect me. The rank structure is the way it is and whatever your personal feelings toward me may be I'm still an officer in the US Army." Basically my best advice would be to pull the NCO aside and have a private conversation with them. E7 and above tend to think of themselves as untouchable and I don't suggest being rude, be the better person. Honestly rank shouldnt matter when it comes to respect and in my opinion even the E-1 fresh out of basic training deserves to be treated as a Soldier and as an adult. You will encounter CSMs that don't want anything to do with you but honestly as a 2LT as long as you have a good rappoir with your PSG some things you just have to let go. Remember Officers make the plans, NCO's get it done. You don't have to be out there all the time.
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SFC Rick H
@ our WO1- I enjoyed your commentary - up to your language where you stated- E7s and above tend to think of themselves as untouchable! If any of my brother and sister Senior NCOs feel untouchable- there is a reason. Perhaps its because we are leaders, technicians, advisors, counselors and that soldier who will get that call in the middle of the night to go and get their soldier; We will handle it and move out quickly. We, the Army's Senior NCOs were selected over hundreds of other soldiers who were striving for the same rank of E7, E8 and E9. We were selected by a board and by folks who never met us; we knew our record must portray who we are and that we are " so damn good !" ; we earned our Senior Status and the respect in which comes with it. One must remember; NCOs are the backbone of the Army. Makes me wonder what enlisted rank you achieved previous to Warrant School? To be fair and honest, all the rest of your commentary is on point. HOOAH!
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CW3 (Join to see)
I didn't mean untouchable as necessarily a bad thing, more like a SFC is usually reserved the right by the ARmy to say...."Uh what the fuck sir." When a company grade officer makes a stupid decision.
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CPT (Join to see) LT there are a few ways you could do it. First you could take them aside and try talking with them one on one and see what their problem is. You could have your PSG talk with them and see what the problem is and if they could back off (I have done this for a PL when I was a PSG and a Company Commander when I was a 1SG). Some might think the second way is chickenshit but it worked for me but I did this on my own without my O asking me. It just made life and work a lot easier without having a 1SG or CSM busting my boss' balls all the time. You could also talk to their boss to have them lay off but I would really use this one as a last resort.
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First, You do deal with ALL NCOs with dignity and respect because that Sr. NCO has been there. Listen to what those NCOs have to say without putting them on the defensive (or steam rolling the officer).
Second, NCOs are the leaders. Your title maybe Platoon Leader, but you are the Platoon Commander. Officers command (issue objectives and guidance then come back in a few hours and supervise) while NCOs lead (instruct juniors, maintain standards, coach and counsel Soldiers). Remind those NCOs that the officer makes the call and the NCO executes that call (and the officer gets out of the way). The perception is that some wet-behind-the-ears/snot-nosed 2LT is going to tell a Sr. NCO with 10-15 years of experience.
Try this: (1) whenever possible, officers come up with the objectives and NCOs put together the nitty-gritty (that you get to review...and ask questions as to why X, then Y, then Z...LEARN from that NCO). Let the NCOs come up with the HOW...you give them the WHAT. (2) I recommend when confronted with a situation, ask the NCOs "what do you think?" Agree or provide further guidance (I'll discuss disagreements below). (3) NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER disagree with an NCO in front of the troops (or get into shouting matches). It makes YOU (the officer) look bad. Do all "staff work" before hand.
Second, NCOs are the leaders. Your title maybe Platoon Leader, but you are the Platoon Commander. Officers command (issue objectives and guidance then come back in a few hours and supervise) while NCOs lead (instruct juniors, maintain standards, coach and counsel Soldiers). Remind those NCOs that the officer makes the call and the NCO executes that call (and the officer gets out of the way). The perception is that some wet-behind-the-ears/snot-nosed 2LT is going to tell a Sr. NCO with 10-15 years of experience.
Try this: (1) whenever possible, officers come up with the objectives and NCOs put together the nitty-gritty (that you get to review...and ask questions as to why X, then Y, then Z...LEARN from that NCO). Let the NCOs come up with the HOW...you give them the WHAT. (2) I recommend when confronted with a situation, ask the NCOs "what do you think?" Agree or provide further guidance (I'll discuss disagreements below). (3) NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER disagree with an NCO in front of the troops (or get into shouting matches). It makes YOU (the officer) look bad. Do all "staff work" before hand.
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Pull them aside, and say in a calm and collected voice "Sgt, what is your $^&$^& problem? Did I do something to personally offend you?"
Don't overthink the problem. It's not a rank issue. It's a person issue. Approach them like a person and bring to their attention that they are acting like a jackass, and that you don't appreciate, and you won't tolerate it.
No need to "flip collars" for it. Most people when confronted about being an ass, will either realize they are wrong (especially if you are calm & collected about it), or double down (which really isn't an option). However, there is always the chance they will bring up some cultural issue that you violated (unknowingly).
Don't overthink the problem. It's not a rank issue. It's a person issue. Approach them like a person and bring to their attention that they are acting like a jackass, and that you don't appreciate, and you won't tolerate it.
No need to "flip collars" for it. Most people when confronted about being an ass, will either realize they are wrong (especially if you are calm & collected about it), or double down (which really isn't an option). However, there is always the chance they will bring up some cultural issue that you violated (unknowingly).
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Borderline insubordination from a senior NCO is wrong at so many levels. We made our bread and butter mentoring our leaders, not tearing them down. This is a very broad discussion and one size never fits all. How bad did the junior screw up vs what was the senior NCO response, etc. A senior NCO who is KNOWN for being a real smart ass needs to have knot yanked into their colon from his higher up. I've also known a junior officer or two that believed enlisted were morons who couldn't piss without getting their fingers wet. I need more intel on the situation to answer effectively. Sounds like you are in a hostile work environment if there is a good old boy climate of protection and abuse.
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