Posted on Oct 23, 2015
What is the purpose of the "no profanity" policy in WLC?
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What is it that the cadre and policy makers in NCOES schools think they are accomplishing by suppressing 240 years of culture. Secondly, I don't know of anyone who after the school was like "oh I better not cuss now I'm a warrior leader"
Posted in these groups: 
NCOES
Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC)
Small Group Leader
Professionalism
Leadership
NCOES Basic Leaders Course (BLC formerly WLC PLDC) Small Group Leader Professionalism Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 142
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as a former WLC instructor I can tell you that if I was standing up in front of you dropping f-bombs every other minute you probably wouldn't listen much. I can also tell you that your MOS or how many deployments you have should not determine how often you get to cuss. In a school house environment such as WLC it is a mix of MOSs from 11B to 91L with male and female Soldiers. Not all Soldiers care for the colorful language that others have become a custom to. Save the F bombs for the field or your fire team and leave them out of school and public areas.... you'll drop it at the wrong time in front of the wrong CSM (who may have been with his daughter at lunch) one day... trust me!
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Simply put, swearing is not professional behavior.
Any form of communication that can accomplished with swearing can be done without it in an equally effective way.
It's not about "suppressing culture," it's showing that there are more tools in the toolbox than just a hammer.
The deeper into the ranks we go, the more likely we are to interact with individuals outside our specific subset, and we must be able to use our full set of communication tools. Dropping an F-bomb while standing next to the Chief of Staff's wife does not present the image of a Professional Soldier, when you can say the exact same thing without profanity, and make her giggle instead.
Any form of communication that can accomplished with swearing can be done without it in an equally effective way.
It's not about "suppressing culture," it's showing that there are more tools in the toolbox than just a hammer.
The deeper into the ranks we go, the more likely we are to interact with individuals outside our specific subset, and we must be able to use our full set of communication tools. Dropping an F-bomb while standing next to the Chief of Staff's wife does not present the image of a Professional Soldier, when you can say the exact same thing without profanity, and make her giggle instead.
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SSG (Join to see)
Everyone understands there is a time and place for everything. Like I'm not going to curse in front of my 10 year old brother. But NCOES is not training you to talk to the cheif of staffs wife or to my ten year old brother. Maybe this is only still prominent in the Infantry nowadays but nothing gets a bunch of soldiers moving faster than an NCO raising his voice higher than talking level and throwing a few profanities in there.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SSG (Join to see) Subjective Assessment. I rarely raise my voice, and have little issue getting folks to move quickly. The old saying "does yelling make people listen better?" spring to mind.
But back to your comment regarding "NCOES is not training you to talk to the chief of staffs wife or to my ten year old brother." Sure it is. Bootcamp is. It's all building blocks. Fundamentals.
In the Lombardi quote "Gentlemen, this is a football" everything is built on basics. NCOES is exactly what teaches you to speak to the wife of the Chief of Staff. It's what teaches you to speak to the President or the Pope, or whomever. It's all abut the little things. Do the little things right, and you do the big things right. Do the little things wrong, and the big things will look like a cluster.
I'm not saying there isn't a time for "choice words" or profanity. I swear. Everyone has dropped a couch on their foot or found a spider in the bathroom at 3am. But, in a professional learning environment, such as WLC, swearing is not appropriate, and as such it should not be used. Because it is inappropriate for the venue, it is unprofessional. In a more appropriate venue, like a bar, telling war-stories... we could call it "professional" however we're no longer in a professional environment, so it still isn't professional behavior.
So it is either unprofessional behavior, or it is NOT professional behavior. That leaves the question of "When is profanity Professional behavior?" as opposed to when it is appropriate. There are plenty of times when it is appropriate. But professional and appropriate do not equate. Since we are first and foremost Professionals:
Army NCO Creed: "No one is more professional than I..."
That makes swearing taboo.
But back to your comment regarding "NCOES is not training you to talk to the chief of staffs wife or to my ten year old brother." Sure it is. Bootcamp is. It's all building blocks. Fundamentals.
In the Lombardi quote "Gentlemen, this is a football" everything is built on basics. NCOES is exactly what teaches you to speak to the wife of the Chief of Staff. It's what teaches you to speak to the President or the Pope, or whomever. It's all abut the little things. Do the little things right, and you do the big things right. Do the little things wrong, and the big things will look like a cluster.
I'm not saying there isn't a time for "choice words" or profanity. I swear. Everyone has dropped a couch on their foot or found a spider in the bathroom at 3am. But, in a professional learning environment, such as WLC, swearing is not appropriate, and as such it should not be used. Because it is inappropriate for the venue, it is unprofessional. In a more appropriate venue, like a bar, telling war-stories... we could call it "professional" however we're no longer in a professional environment, so it still isn't professional behavior.
So it is either unprofessional behavior, or it is NOT professional behavior. That leaves the question of "When is profanity Professional behavior?" as opposed to when it is appropriate. There are plenty of times when it is appropriate. But professional and appropriate do not equate. Since we are first and foremost Professionals:
Army NCO Creed: "No one is more professional than I..."
That makes swearing taboo.
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MSG Nathan Ellison
"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight it's way out of a piss-soaked paper bag."
-General George Patton
-General George Patton
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Profanity is a violation of the UCMJ, Article 134, Indecent Language. The "point" is adherence to military policy/ law. It's not political correctness, it's not coddling, and it's certainly not new. It's been the law for decades. We just happen to be a part of several generations where everyone discusses regulations without reading them.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
CPT Toby Forbes - Indecent ones, as determined by the Commander who is using the article in question. Commanders discretion goes a long way..
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SPC Nathaniel Reynolds - There's no loophole. The WLC Commandant created a policy against it. Most MACOM's have published policies about it. Between that and the UCMJ, it's pretty lock tight..
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MSgt Devon Saunders
There are a PLETHORA of things we do that are in violation of the UCMJ. With that being said, are we going to point out each one and hold everyone accountable???
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Words and actions represent who we are as an individual, in our family, and in our profession. It all represents you. Leaders inspire: words and action.
Do you want to be viewed as a professional and as a leader? The choice of words is yours.
Do you want to be viewed as a professional and as a leader? The choice of words is yours.
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MSG (Join to see)
I have nary a problem with that sir, nary a problem on both counts and I have been known to drop some intrinsic prose from time to time.
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SSG (Join to see), I enlisted on 9AUG69, came up through the ranks and there is no profanity, Army or otherwise, that I have not heard or used, and sometimes used with great frequency and eloquence (a la GEN George Patton)!
However, I was a Tactical (training) Officer at OCS for a few years, and I made a conscious decision to not use any profanity when addressing officer candidates. I never put my hands on one either. I felt like if I was training future officers (and ladies and gentlemen), I'd try to behave that way myself. That was just me, and no superior officer even suggested it. However, the lack of use of profanity did not diminish my job effectiveness in the least. If I felt an officer candidate was not up to standard and needed to leave OCS, believe me, he/she left!
I also did a tour as a detailed inspector general, and as a general rule, the words that I wanted to say were most often shelved and delivered in a much more benevolent and polite manner.
Otherwise, it was Army language as usual!
CPT L S CSM Charles Hayden CPT (Join to see) SGT (Join to see)
However, I was a Tactical (training) Officer at OCS for a few years, and I made a conscious decision to not use any profanity when addressing officer candidates. I never put my hands on one either. I felt like if I was training future officers (and ladies and gentlemen), I'd try to behave that way myself. That was just me, and no superior officer even suggested it. However, the lack of use of profanity did not diminish my job effectiveness in the least. If I felt an officer candidate was not up to standard and needed to leave OCS, believe me, he/she left!
I also did a tour as a detailed inspector general, and as a general rule, the words that I wanted to say were most often shelved and delivered in a much more benevolent and polite manner.
Otherwise, it was Army language as usual!
CPT L S CSM Charles Hayden CPT (Join to see) SGT (Join to see)
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SFC Ronald Burris
I was the Asst S1 for OCS from 2005-2013. Your name looks familiar. I believe you were a Cpt when I first got there in 2005. The Officers and NCOs at OCS did a great job for the OCS Candidates and they all have their Sr Trainers and Trainers to thank for their successful careers.
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LTC Stephen C.
You are most kind, SFC Ronald Burris, and I'd like to say that we served together, but we did not! I retired from the USAR in MAY98, and I was a Tac Officer as a lieutenant in the mid to late seventies!
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SFC Ronald Burris
LTC Stephen C. - HI Sir,
My deepest apologies. Thank you for being kind responding and letting me know. Thank you so much for your Service. Ron
My deepest apologies. Thank you for being kind responding and letting me know. Thank you so much for your Service. Ron
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LTC Stephen C.
No need for apologies, SFC Ronald Burris! I'm just glad to be recognized at all, even if erroneously! I extend my thanks to you for your service as well!
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My 1st SGT in basic was from Louisiana and had a fourth grade education. I took basic at Polk. He could not speak without every other word a nasty cuss word, and I mean nasty. I can't repeat some of the things he said on RP, but all it did for me was realize how ignorant he was. The training NCO's were very professional and taught me a lot about structure, thinking ahead, and how to be a good soldier. It paid off when I went to Nam. I didn't feel as lost and confused as some my friends did. I paid it forward by helping them to understand better what was expected from them in combat situations. The first thing I tried to instill in them was self confidence. I thought if they could develop that, everything else would fall into place. I never swore or showed any disrespect to them. They l in turn, respected me, and trusted me.
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We have become a candy army. We are an organization designed to kill people and break things, and now we do this politely, with professional PC. Awesome, hope your future enemies enjoy your rigid professionalism...
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SPC Nathaniel Reynolds
Yes Sir, I recall being told we couldn't sing certain cadences during Brigade runs because they mentioned killing...I was Infantry, that's what we're trained to do. Of course we hear the command element full of non-infantry singing left, right, left, right KILL! Yep wussification of a great fighting force.
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LTC Joseph Gross
Churchill said it best. When your aim is to kill a man, it costs you nothing to be polite.
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It wasn't a "rule" back in the Stone Ages when I was an SGL, lol, it was frowned upon as by today's standards it is considered unprofessional or utilized by the uneducated....occasional usage I see no problem with, however, I am not as "sensitive" as some!!
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MSG (Join to see)
That is what they say- but underestimate me and mines at your own peril. I think it is just another reason to poo-poo on others.
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And to what end is cursing going to lead? Is it a shortage in vocabulary that causes one to revert to cursing? It certainly is not something that leads to a better outcome. In most instances the intent is demeaning and derogatory. Not qualities that align with:
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage
At the WLC you are taking the next step in becoming a leader of men who may or may not want to do what you are telling them to do, but you must give them orders nonetheless. It is better if it comes from the mouth of a leader whom they respect than one whom they may fear but most likely will despise.
The choice is yours.
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage
At the WLC you are taking the next step in becoming a leader of men who may or may not want to do what you are telling them to do, but you must give them orders nonetheless. It is better if it comes from the mouth of a leader whom they respect than one whom they may fear but most likely will despise.
The choice is yours.
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I entered the Army in 1956. During basic training and AIT I was a trainee squad leader. Later, I became a fire team leader, a squad leader, a platoon sergeant, a 1st Sergeant, then a brigade operations sergeant, then an armored battalion CSM, then a supply and transport battalion CSM, then a brigade. I never used profanity around my men and as i progressed up in positions of responsibility, my men never used profanity when talking with me. Good leaders do not need to use profanity. In fact, I knew many officers and senior NCOs that considered an individuals's vocabulary when filling out efficiency ratings. I worked for eight LTCs and COLs.........not one of them resorted to profanity....and two of them became general officers.....one three stars. That was in my career of 26 years, 5 months, and 2 days of service
Profanity is unprofessional........whether in combat or civilian life.
Retired CSM, US Army
Profanity is unprofessional........whether in combat or civilian life.
Retired CSM, US Army
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