Posted on Mar 6, 2015
What's The Problem With The Air Force Culture?
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EDIT: In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, I am leaving the original text of this post below so that you may see how I originally approached this question. When I first posted this, I was still a relative newcomer to RallyPoint. I was and still am curious about Air Force culture, working on Fort Snelling, MN, home of the 934th Air Wing, United States Air Force Reserve as well as the 133rd Tactical Fighter Squadron, Minnesota Air National Guard. In the past, I have worked jointly with elements of Air Force Security Forces and have always enjoyed strong working relationships. Aside from the usual banter across services, there is strong curiosity across the Army about you men and women in blue. However, this trend started to grow gradually more toxic in approximately 2007, around about the time SECDEF Rumsfeld leveled the charge that the Air Force wasn't engaged in the fight. That was an unfair charge; yet it hurt you as an institution nevertheless. Slowly, the talk I would hear among Soldiers in regards to Airmen turned more to contempt and bitterness. This wasn't right. And we all know that the Army's house has been far from perfect over the past decade plus; from Abu Ghraib to the apparent trend of dishonesty within our own Officer corps, we have our own crosses to bear without finding fault within your Force. So, if my original post below came across to you as sanctimonious or judgmental, that wasn't my intent. When I posted, I followed the recommendations to lead off with an attention-grabbing storyline, which I did. It's worked well! However, as I've refined my RP skills, I now know I would have dialed it back a notch or two! Thanks so much for allowing me to be a guest in your house and learn from you. I am thankful to you all, I am grateful for the connections I've made, and I'm damn glad you're on my side!
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Air Force
Culture
Airmen
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 123
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There are too many to choose just one but I will only pick one or two for now. As the nation's youngest military branch, it seems top me you have a bunch of people afraid of their own shadows. In my brief USAF career (12 years) I saw what seemed like wholesale changes. Just ahead of my enlistment Things changed from A3C, A2C, A1C, SSgt to Amn, A1C, Sgt...was it really necessary? Just a few years later the Sgt (E-4) was re-branded Sr.Amn and the Sgt E-4 slowly faded away.
Then there is the uniform matter. I can't count the changes I saw in my time on active duty but it's bloody ridiculous. For a utility uniform all branches should be using the same uniforms unless specifics of the duty require a special uniform i.e. Missile techs (white coverallS) v. Aircraft crew chief (cotton fatigues). The cotton fatigues served us well and the authorized lighter weight perma-press were also good wearing. Why does a flight line maintainer need tiger stripes? In Vietnam you could make an argument for them but not in Iraq/Afghanistan or other OCONUS or CONUS locales. I agree there should be some theater specific utility wear but for any duty in a non-hostile environment there should be one uniform for all branches..
Then there is the uniform matter. I can't count the changes I saw in my time on active duty but it's bloody ridiculous. For a utility uniform all branches should be using the same uniforms unless specifics of the duty require a special uniform i.e. Missile techs (white coverallS) v. Aircraft crew chief (cotton fatigues). The cotton fatigues served us well and the authorized lighter weight perma-press were also good wearing. Why does a flight line maintainer need tiger stripes? In Vietnam you could make an argument for them but not in Iraq/Afghanistan or other OCONUS or CONUS locales. I agree there should be some theater specific utility wear but for any duty in a non-hostile environment there should be one uniform for all branches..
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Without reading any of the opinions, I am going to give my opinion from an officer level. We are the most bureaucratic of all the Services...meaning we need everyone's opinion before we can make a decision, thus holding things up because someone gets upset and thus nothing happening. My time at the Pentagon frustrated me most. When you can't get a three star to make a decision on Policy or Instruction without staffing it through the entire Pentagon makes no since. Their job is to make a damn decision and solve problems. The are many long stories to my frustrations, but I will leave it at that...
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I do not believe there is anything wrong with the Air Force. I believe the Air Force to be a strong support for the Army and Marines. The AF is intelligence...intelligence gathering....computers/electronics/super spies etc....they are not ON THE GROUND FIGHTING SOLDIERS....they are in a class of their own. The Air Force takes to the skies and fights way up high from the heavens...There is nothing wrong with the Air Force!
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In my opinion, I think that a lot of what is wrong has a lot to do with the younger generation's culture coming in. Back in the 1940s and 1950s the culture of the American youth was respectful, patriotic, and hardworking. Today's generation has lost a great deal of that. While we still have some respect and patriotism I don't believe it is on the same level as our parents and grandparents. As for the hard working part, well it seems that so many kids today have this mentality that they are owed things in life. For what reason? Living? I don't know. My parents made it a point in our house that we say yes sir, no sir; yes ma'am, no ma'am; that we worked for what we wanted. If we wanted money for something you better go wash the car, mow the lawn, do some extra house chores and earn that 5 dollars. I cringe when I see or hear another SrA tell a brand new troop from tech school "don't call me sir or ma'am". NO no no let them hold onto that respect they have gained for as long as they can.
Another sign of the times changing is this sudden push for being mindful of others feelings. Now, should we be polite and not purposefully rude...of course. But having to tiptoe around the feeling of everyone seems to really make us more sensitive. I don't think that General MacArthur or General Patton ever worried hurting the feelings of their troops, especially if what they were saying was for their own good or safety.
I know you were originally looking for higher ranks to reply, but even as a 26 yr old SrA I can definitely see that there is something wrong with the AF of today versus the AF of yesterday.
Another sign of the times changing is this sudden push for being mindful of others feelings. Now, should we be polite and not purposefully rude...of course. But having to tiptoe around the feeling of everyone seems to really make us more sensitive. I don't think that General MacArthur or General Patton ever worried hurting the feelings of their troops, especially if what they were saying was for their own good or safety.
I know you were originally looking for higher ranks to reply, but even as a 26 yr old SrA I can definitely see that there is something wrong with the AF of today versus the AF of yesterday.
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What's wrong with it ? Nothing. The problem is how the AF is perceived. We get up like you, we eat chow like you, we go off to our jobs like you. THAT'S WHERE THE DIFFERENCE BEGINS". You get into a ground vehicle, and someone drives you to the Theater of Operations. You get out go to your assigned location wait for orders, accomplish duties , and wait to go home (if you're lucky). Now on the other hand , I go to my job by way of an Aircraft sitting on the APRON (ramp), go thru my check list to make sure the plane is operational, and when the pilot and other members of the crew arrive we load up whatever cargo, troops , or combination there of, taxi down the runway and take off. Once over the drop-zone, the cargo is "Air-Dropped", the troops bail out the aft end or either of the rear doors located "Port and Starboard" (for the Navy guys....) and we go home , if we're lucky.
Baring a malfunction in the Aerial delivery extraction , or Aerial troop deployment, or someone doesn't shoot us down, or blinds the pilot with a ground directed laser, or someone flies a drone to close and causes an incident, we make it back. We land , taxi up , park it and go to our respective homes. If I have 100 or more troops to drop, $3-10 million in equipment to drop , and a Multi-Million dollar Aircraft to get back to its home , you've only witnessed 5-9 aircrew at work. Where's the rest of the Air Force ? We see more of the our sister services than they do of us. You may be going to a combat zone in the Middle East and be there the next day and the next and so on....But just REMEMBER....the Air Force is on a "Global Mission" everyday, and you may not see me again for 20 years.
Baring a malfunction in the Aerial delivery extraction , or Aerial troop deployment, or someone doesn't shoot us down, or blinds the pilot with a ground directed laser, or someone flies a drone to close and causes an incident, we make it back. We land , taxi up , park it and go to our respective homes. If I have 100 or more troops to drop, $3-10 million in equipment to drop , and a Multi-Million dollar Aircraft to get back to its home , you've only witnessed 5-9 aircrew at work. Where's the rest of the Air Force ? We see more of the our sister services than they do of us. You may be going to a combat zone in the Middle East and be there the next day and the next and so on....But just REMEMBER....the Air Force is on a "Global Mission" everyday, and you may not see me again for 20 years.
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TSgt David Crear
It's all in how you perceive what the Air Force does......Think outside the box, Think GLOBAL.
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Major Paul E. Hoiland, I don't know what the big deal is between the Army and the Air Force. Maybe because they have a bigger budget? Bettter uniforms except for the Marine Corps. But I do know this, as a young Sergeant I had to get home to Hawaii ASAP because of a family issue and who do you think came through for me? Yep the Airmen and women of the United States Air Force. I got on a C-130 at Norton AFB. I never been on one before. And yes it took a lot longer than I expected but I got home. Same goes for the Army Warrants in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I needed a ride to Riyadh and who got me there. Yep the Warrant Officers from the U.S. Army. So, I have nothing bad to say about both of our sister services. I just know they are there when I needed some help. Semper Fi, JK
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Misconception about the Air Force and it's culture? No!!
I'm a bit taken back by the comments made by SECDEF Rumsfeld about the Air Force being out of the fight in 2007. I seem to remember doing my time in the sandbox at the time along with a few of my other brothers and sisters deployed in other regions in support of OEF/OIF.
The culture of the USAF does come off as being more corporate than military, but that does not negate the fact we can serve up our own special blend of ass-kickery (and not just from the skies either).
As a former cop, we did a lot of joint missions with our Army brethren. Gen. Tommy Frank's even praised our hard work and support on convoy missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. If anything, being a cop in the Air Force is almost comparable to that of Army Infantry. My technical school was nearly another form of boot camp.
I can understand the complaints and overall bitching of Soldiers who feel the Air Force is slacking, but in the end, we're only following orders and are not in the position to dictate how we serve or where we go in theater operations. Plus, everyone wearing the uniform made a conscious decision about which branch they wanted to serve.
I'm a bit taken back by the comments made by SECDEF Rumsfeld about the Air Force being out of the fight in 2007. I seem to remember doing my time in the sandbox at the time along with a few of my other brothers and sisters deployed in other regions in support of OEF/OIF.
The culture of the USAF does come off as being more corporate than military, but that does not negate the fact we can serve up our own special blend of ass-kickery (and not just from the skies either).
As a former cop, we did a lot of joint missions with our Army brethren. Gen. Tommy Frank's even praised our hard work and support on convoy missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. If anything, being a cop in the Air Force is almost comparable to that of Army Infantry. My technical school was nearly another form of boot camp.
I can understand the complaints and overall bitching of Soldiers who feel the Air Force is slacking, but in the end, we're only following orders and are not in the position to dictate how we serve or where we go in theater operations. Plus, everyone wearing the uniform made a conscious decision about which branch they wanted to serve.
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Other than Officers being willing (at least from 72-92) to ask experienced enlisted how to do things right instead of pretending to know it all. Not much different from other services... except for that sending our officer's out to do the fighting thing.
I guess that does make it pretty different at that.
I guess that does make it pretty different at that.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I've been in a few running gun battles with two Air Force Officers fighting their asses off with me during attacks on Iraqi Police Stations in 2007, so, since 1992, it would seem that your Air Force has changed considerably. As for your grossly false assumption that the Air Force somehow holds, or perhaps more aptly, held the patent on an Officer Corps that values and seeks the input from its Senior NCO leadership only serves to amplify the very perceptions that make so many from the outside looking at your institution shake their heads and ask, "What's wrong with Air Force culture?"
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MSgt Ted C Hall
Doesn't sound like they're working within their scope of expertise. But there is a slight difference in seeking input and putting senior NCOs in commmand and of small units.
Old experiences, but having 2Lts stumble over a SMSgt or CMSgt as a site commander on an Army Post (Conn Bks FRG) was good for a laugh or two in the 80s...
Old experiences, but having 2Lts stumble over a SMSgt or CMSgt as a site commander on an Army Post (Conn Bks FRG) was good for a laugh or two in the 80s...
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MAJ (Join to see)
MSgt Ted C Hall, I was working with AF Security Forces; I was initially surprised to learn they were mixing into our formations for Iraqi Freedom, but they did very well. My only frustration was the fact that they were on a 7 month deployment cycle while the Army was on a 12-15 month cycle. It seems the AF would no sooner be hitting full stride with having developed their relationships and establishing trust with the Iraqis, and they would leave and the new group had to start back at square one.
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