Posted on Jan 18, 2018
What would you do if you had a soldier with a permanent profile (for running) and you saw this soldier running for exercise?
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Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 18
Nothing. Obviously the soldier is trying to get a good workout in. Usually profiles are run at own pace and distance. Unless the profile specifically states no running, leave the soldier alone. Also, as someone who ran with a P2 profile, some days you feel better than others. I may run today with no problem and next week my whole left leg could swell up for simply kicking a few lieutenants in the chest.
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CSM (Join to see)
Permanent 2 profiles can not prohibit running; they can only authorize alternate cardio events for the APFT. They would specify run at own pace and distance which provides the Soldiers options on PRT endurance training, endurance training machines, formation runs, etc. There is no “no running” when under direct or indirect fire. If it’s a permanent 3 or 4 profile, the Soldier would be boarded to see if medical retention standards can be met or waived in current MOS or the Army. Temporary profiles may limit or direct physical therapy or PRT reconditioning which may encourage Soldiers not to run. Maybe the Soldier is having a good day and feels up to sprinting short distances or going for a light jog; as long as the activity does not worsen their condition, it is authorized. If I saw a Soldier who can not run due to profile and they're in the club getting low or doing the running man, then that would be different.
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SFC (Join to see)
LOL. SGM, we at RallyPoint, will need you to give us a demonstration of this running man and how to get low so we can accurately identify these soldiers in the club.
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First of all break out the camera, video tape if possible or get witnesses. Next make sure profile eliminates ALL running and not states "running at your own pace". Next counseling statement and inform your PS of the situation.
Seems to me if the soldier needs exercise, then I bet you can find some work that will help exercise this soldier and burn up some energy.
Seems to me if the soldier needs exercise, then I bet you can find some work that will help exercise this soldier and burn up some energy.
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Take it case by case. I tore my rotator cuff at an army school and was already seeing chiropractor for back injuries once a week. Forced to have a profile. Normally I'm am a 300 pt score type guy, lead from the front !! My profile was basically a dead man profile. But, once I felt strong enough I started to work my self back up to par, (286 on APFT first test after profile lifted.) If I had someone report me without talking to me I'd be pissed! If an NCO can't speak to the SM AND HANDLE AT THE LOWEST LEVEL... Take off your stripes. If the SM is I dirt bag and shaming handle accordingly. But, either way do your due diligence and ask yourself what you did to help, guide, or mentor before you throw them under the bus. Golden rule still applies, how would you want to be treated if it were you in their shoes. Trust me, I'm a hard ass... 210 is the apft standard for my joes, 220 for NCOs 270 for myself, but pissed if not a 290-300.
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I believe that the best first step would be to talk to the SM. If you know for sure that his profile eliminates all running, not just limited to own pace/distance or no organized running type profiles, I would then counsel the SM that you intend to push this farther up the chain for possible disciplinary actions. As always, be if you have any questions as to the legality of it you can speak to JAG for advice. I believe someone stated however, do not jump to conclusions. If there is one lesson I have had to teach myself it is to slow my initial thought to yell at the SM and ensure that I know all the facts first. Maybe the SM is trying to see if they can run so they can get rid of that permanent profile. If they are not, hold their feet to the fire.
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You have to have the facts first. Find out why he or she is running. Talk to them. As NCO's we shouldn't be all about punishment, but bettering our soldiers. Think about it. You don't know all the circumstances.
First collect the information you need to make a sound judgment, then make a call.
First collect the information you need to make a sound judgment, then make a call.
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Investigate.
Not all profiles or soldiers are created equally. The profile might say no formation running, or run at own pace, or alternate APFT event (for whatever reason). Without finding out the particulars, we're operating blind. It "might" be malingering. It might also be something completely benign and part of the soldier-doctor's longterm recovery plan.
Not all profiles or soldiers are created equally. The profile might say no formation running, or run at own pace, or alternate APFT event (for whatever reason). Without finding out the particulars, we're operating blind. It "might" be malingering. It might also be something completely benign and part of the soldier-doctor's longterm recovery plan.
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Implied my soldier, I would ask myself why I did not know the situation and would confront in private to ask about this. If the soldier was really trying to get better and discard the profile, well that is another thing, but If I see one side of trying to gold brick like the Sick Call heroes I would have a conversation about possible Article 15 and dereliction of duty...
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Start by asking what's up and go from there. Might be good to have a witness or video capture to the running before you do, or you may get into a debate or denial. Once you know more, get with the appropriate folks to resolve it. Document in your personal notes with names, dates, times, locations etc. If it does get "official" you'll have a good start to build from. It may just be someone trying to improve themselves within the limits of profile. Nothing wrong with that.
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Having said that, due to the stigma associated with profiles, there are a lot of people who are trying their best to overcome their limitations and injuries and get off their profiles. Demonizing people who are trying to improve themselves sets a bad precedent. You're going to end up with people riding profiles in perpetuity, stagnating.
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Suspended Profile
SGM Bill Frazer and to be more accurate my question is how many profiles OTHER THAN YOUR OWN have you looked at lately? Your personal experience with your highly individual to you profile is hardly representative of The army as a whole
SGM Bill Frazer
Great here is a budding want to be /soon to be E8 in Electro magnetic spectrum MOS- with a big mouth/ego. Look SFC I spent my entire career as grunt, 11B, in Airborne units on jump status- I saw my profiles than most people would ever see., sprains, breaks, broke arms, legs, pelvis, even backs. And I had my shape of temp profiles. I seriously doubt you ever see much of that in your MOS. I closely read all my folks profiles, temp and perm, because we had to report monthly thru the chain all the way to HQDA/JCS on our readiness/manning. It was a lot hard in those days to move folks out of units/MOS. MEB were slow, little computer work lots of paperwork. At the Corps level we had a fair number of perm profiles, waiting on the sys, blessed to us by our divisions. Instead of throwing rocks at folks, either learn something or stop trying to be bigger than you are.
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Suspended Profile
SGM Bill Frazer I...don’t care? I really don’t. I spent 75% of my career in in field signal units where guys get broken all the time. I’m currently at a brigade headquarters where pretty much everyone is broken by the time they get to us.
I’ve interacted enough with you before that your default answer to everything seems to be “nail joe to the wall” and your insistence that you can’t possibly be wrong about anything is borderline comical. The army is different. You’ve been out probably as long as I’ve been in, dude. Every answer you give that I’ve seen seems to be some attempt to justify your own ego and toughness. It’s pathetic. Your rank doesn’t impress me, your old war stories don’t impress me and your take on leadership doesn’t impress me. Period. You REEK of shoot off at the mouth then gather information later. That’s piss poor soldiering. I’m sure you go to bed every night feeling like you single handedly saved the army from everything but your track record proves you’re just a bitter old blowhard who can’t handle the fact that you don’t matter anymore.
And why the hell does your profile say Human Resources?
I’ve interacted enough with you before that your default answer to everything seems to be “nail joe to the wall” and your insistence that you can’t possibly be wrong about anything is borderline comical. The army is different. You’ve been out probably as long as I’ve been in, dude. Every answer you give that I’ve seen seems to be some attempt to justify your own ego and toughness. It’s pathetic. Your rank doesn’t impress me, your old war stories don’t impress me and your take on leadership doesn’t impress me. Period. You REEK of shoot off at the mouth then gather information later. That’s piss poor soldiering. I’m sure you go to bed every night feeling like you single handedly saved the army from everything but your track record proves you’re just a bitter old blowhard who can’t handle the fact that you don’t matter anymore.
And why the hell does your profile say Human Resources?
SGM Bill Frazer
SFC Thomas Foreman - I posted this before I saw your other post- so is comes across lil harsh. Sig units, I doubt suffer as many training incidents as ABN IN, but I won't dispute they get hurt. But you were insolent to me. No I no longer see profiles, and haven't in 2 decades , but I damn sure saw them for 23 yrs. I understand they trow folks out quicker now, the it is still hard with senior NCO, who are almost retirement age, or have needed skills. Glad you're at Bde level, I did that as an E6, and retire as 1 of 2 G# OPS NCO's at XVIII ABC HQ. So vent child if it make you feel better, cause frankly I don't care. And since I have retired I worked for multi million $ companies as the OPS Specialist and currently as one's HR Mgr. I have lived thru too much, seen too much and survived too much to worry about you and your limited career. Have a nice day kid.
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In my brief experience as an NCO, I had this twice. Both times, I simply approached the soldier and asked them about the occurrence. If you have the right relationship with your soldiers, I believe you will be able to identify where there is a problem or where it just looks bad. I try to assume the best, but prepare for the worst. As others on here have so aptly said before me, there's always sides to the situation that we don't know until we ask. Use your discretion, but also try to be there to coach and mentor your soldiers.
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Read the profile before passing judgment. Many of them will state something to the effect "may run up to one mile."
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Some profiles indicate that some individuals can only run at their own pace, which exempts them from running in formation.
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I'd refer him to the local Medcen/DOD hospital with a request for an appropriate physician to evaluate the soldier. I'd also ask for his/her prior medical records/civilian medical records to determine why the soldier got a permanent profile in the first place.
Then, with the medical experts opinion, based on clinical evaluations & original conditions for permanent profile, would either have the permanent profile amended &/or discontinued.
Then, with the medical experts opinion, based on clinical evaluations & original conditions for permanent profile, would either have the permanent profile amended &/or discontinued.
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You document it and have them recommended for UCMJ action for malingering. Simple as that. However, it may be difficult to go all the way through with it unless you are able to pull out a camera and get a video of them.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
SFC Thomas Foreman a 3 on legs will prevent anyone from running. And I haven't seen a permanent profile granted with less than a 3 rating.
The question stated the SM has a perm profile barring them from running. I can assume they have seen the profile then. So, if they have seen and know the terms of the profile and see the SM breaking it, that SM can be disciplined for malingering.
The question stated the SM has a perm profile barring them from running. I can assume they have seen the profile then. So, if they have seen and know the terms of the profile and see the SM breaking it, that SM can be disciplined for malingering.
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Suspended Profile
SGT Joseph Gunderson it says they have a permanent profile “for running”
I’m not trying to cause an argument where there doesn’t need to be one but the verbiage of the profile is critical to how I’d proceed. And since I don’t have that verbiage, I have to assume it’s in line with most of the others I’ve seen...
For reference, I was a training NCO for 5 years and part of my job was to help soldiers navigate the profile/medboard process...almost every profile I’ve seen “for running” ended up “run at own pace and distance” which is the justification for an alternate aerobic event...
I’m not trying to cause an argument where there doesn’t need to be one but the verbiage of the profile is critical to how I’d proceed. And since I don’t have that verbiage, I have to assume it’s in line with most of the others I’ve seen...
For reference, I was a training NCO for 5 years and part of my job was to help soldiers navigate the profile/medboard process...almost every profile I’ve seen “for running” ended up “run at own pace and distance” which is the justification for an alternate aerobic event...
SGT Joseph Gunderson
SFC Thomas Foreman I had a profile that barred me from running for my last year.
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Suspended Profile
SGT Joseph Gunderson that was specific to you. I have one that specifically says “no sit-ups” (bad discs” but I fought to be able to still run. Pretty sure it’s a P2, but I haven’t looked in a while
get Photos/Videos and Nail him/her to the 1st SGT's wall might want to Go to the BN Surgeon's Office
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Suspended Profile
Everyone wants to nail the guy to the wall when you all know damn well a “no running” profile is pretty rare and they almost always say “soldier may run at own pace and distance”
Video camera surveillance? Really?
Video camera surveillance? Really?
THE soldiers profile will say or run at own pace or distance or walk at own pace and distance
or simply walk , bike , swim as alternate events in pt and pt test
or simply walk , bike , swim as alternate events in pt and pt test
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I would ask him what was going on. Was he running a marathon or doing a ten miler? That might be a problem. If he said he was testing out his ability under the care of his PCM I don't see a problem with it.
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