Posted on May 5, 2016
What would you do if you knew a MAJ submitted a fraudulent DA Form 705 APFT & DA Form 5500 Body Composition in a packet?
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If while formulating your solution you get stuck, you may submit a Request for Information (RFI). I will not solve it for you, but if you require more information or need some guidance that is fine.
Here is a point of reference:
Two female Soldiers >40 years old:
Soldier A - 63” tall 126 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 26% Army Wellness Center Pod: 27%
Soldier B - 64” tall 173 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 25% Army Wellness Center Pod: Refused
Discuss.....
Here is a point of reference:
Two female Soldiers >40 years old:
Soldier A - 63” tall 126 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 26% Army Wellness Center Pod: 27%
Soldier B - 64” tall 173 lbs. Body Composition Tape: 25% Army Wellness Center Pod: Refused
Discuss.....
Integrity
APFT
Misconduct
Character
What Would You Do
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 204
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CSM, what would you do if you knew a SGM that did this? The answer should be the same.
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CSM (Join to see)
Sir, Agreed. I give no special treatment for a peer. I would report anyone that had such a serious integrity violation.
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1SG (Join to see)
CSM (Join to see) - I'd argue that it is even more critical due to the visibility an E-9 doing this would have and the impact on the formation.
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CSM (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - Yes the impact was similar to the asteroid that hit earth 65 million years ago. Yes almost all life was extinguished. Then eventually the “earth” recovered and is flourishing.
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If it can be withdrawn approach the Major and advise him or her to pull it, in either case if it goes forward report them.
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This exact thing happened at the current duty location where I'm at. A CPT (P) lied about his age right before a APFT/HT-WT although his actual birthday was in 2 weeks and he passed the allowed screening body fat percentage and ultimately got promoted. Only a little while after the fact when the training room was auditing their records did someone catch the fact that he posted the wrong age 2 weeks earlier then he should of and after the issue was brought he then received UCMJ and was technically forced to seperate form the Army.
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CSM (Join to see)
CW3 Hayes, It is good to hear that your Command held the Soldier accountable. Thank you for upholding the Army Values.
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Follow your CoC, carefully taking the skulls of all involved Training Rooms and S1s on your way up. Push to have a Battalion leadership conduct the re-tape and start the bye-bye packet.
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CSM (Join to see)
It is all dependent on Leadership and their personal philosophy of "do what is right no matter the pain" or "make it go away this hurts too much."
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SGT Casey Lovell
CSM (Join to see) - Easily the best way to lose control over the issue. I wasn't in long, but it was abundantly clear that the number of opinions was directly related to how high the issue went. People love drama.
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CSM (Join to see)
pSGT Casey Lovell - Leaders must enforce standards and hold Soldiers accountable for their actions no matter if it is an officer or enlisted Soldier.
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CSM (Join to see)
SFC Praino,
STRONG LEADERSHIP is not afraid of the wrongdoers. Sometimes the IG helps the wrongdoer. That is painful.
STRONG LEADERSHIP is not afraid of the wrongdoers. Sometimes the IG helps the wrongdoer. That is painful.
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That's filing a false report, and it is grounds for immediate loss of commission. However, if you don't want to go that route, it is grounds for a LOR at the very least.
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CSM (Join to see)
SPC Pietrantonio, Very good thought processes. The main thing is some kind of action MUST be taken.
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SPC (Join to see)
CSM (Join to see), I've been working with my BN Chaplain a lot. She has told me a lot about how things go when officers at any grade are doing the wrong thing.
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SPC (Join to see)
You're generally correct. However, when things go wrong, there is due process for the perpetrators.
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at this point it doesn't sound like there is anything you can do if its just your word vs. theirs.
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Suspended Profile
It isn't one word against another when you have them take another APFT and Height and Weight. Something tells me those numbers were pencil whipped and it will show.
Suspended Profile
I hate when Staff Sergeants make excuses, that is ok for a Specialist not promotable but after you've been in the military long enough to earn stripes. I am not perfect, but at least I don't try to blame anyone or make excuses.
CSM (Join to see)
SSG Jordan Gaudard - That is good - stay that way. Also, you should read about Transformational Leadership. It would be a good fit for you.
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Doesn't the reg require a taper and an observer? Unless the document was forged you have two NCOs every bit as guilty as one officer.
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Suspended Profile
I disagree with your comment about the opposite sex taping. I have taped many females and it has never been a problem. I always ask if they have a problem with me taping them and I always have at least 2 females in the room. They must keep on the APFU anyway, so where is the issue? The Army is composed of 15% females, but that doesn't say that 15% of NCOs and Officers are females. Most of the females I have to tape are NCOs or Officers because they are normally the ones who we would have tape.
I do agree with commanders setting internal policies. In the unit I am currently in there are 6 platoon sergeants, and only three are allowed to tape Soldiers. We have a class once a quarter completed by the senior platoon sergeant on taping to ensure we are in compliance and know what we are responsible for. This control keeps Soldiers honest and more consistency with the test.
I do agree with commanders setting internal policies. In the unit I am currently in there are 6 platoon sergeants, and only three are allowed to tape Soldiers. We have a class once a quarter completed by the senior platoon sergeant on taping to ensure we are in compliance and know what we are responsible for. This control keeps Soldiers honest and more consistency with the test.
CPT Mark Gonzalez
SSG Jordan Gaudard - I would just tell that it is your career. I have seen SHARP complaints where there were other people in the room. It only takes one time to lock up a career for a solid six to nine months, but I hope it never happens to you or anyone you know. The military has an incredible amount of scrutiny on it by congress for sharp issues and you would be amazed as a tape test could become abusive sexual contact as the Soldier was intimidated and didn't want to say no to a male taping her.
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Not to be blunt, but what is the "official process" if you think something is jacked up and out of your direct control?
We have the "Request Mast" process when it directly affects ourselves, but that does not seem applicable here. It sounds like the (her) Commander has already been involved.
If in doubt "Escalate." Approach the Senior Enlisted Advisor of the next higher echelon and see about getting the higher commander involved. You don't want to screw your boss (going behind his back), but you don't want a dirt back to get away with it either.
As Cpl Rc Layne said, once you are aware of the situation, failure to investigate/report makes you complicit in the matter.
We have the "Request Mast" process when it directly affects ourselves, but that does not seem applicable here. It sounds like the (her) Commander has already been involved.
If in doubt "Escalate." Approach the Senior Enlisted Advisor of the next higher echelon and see about getting the higher commander involved. You don't want to screw your boss (going behind his back), but you don't want a dirt back to get away with it either.
As Cpl Rc Layne said, once you are aware of the situation, failure to investigate/report makes you complicit in the matter.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
CSM (Join to see) - Due dilligenge complete. Situation not resolved nor liked, but outside your control.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but how big of a turd and how big of punchbowl is this worth? It sounds like this has been "handled" within your scope of influence.
Sure it pisses you off, but what are the actual ramifications? How does it affect you, your unit, or your people? If you can't provide solid answers to that, it will APPEAR vendetta like even though you and I know it is a major ethical issue that needs resolution.
No advice, just added context. Again, I agree it's wring, but don't know a good resolution. Too many conflicting boundaries that have to be bypassed.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but how big of a turd and how big of punchbowl is this worth? It sounds like this has been "handled" within your scope of influence.
Sure it pisses you off, but what are the actual ramifications? How does it affect you, your unit, or your people? If you can't provide solid answers to that, it will APPEAR vendetta like even though you and I know it is a major ethical issue that needs resolution.
No advice, just added context. Again, I agree it's wring, but don't know a good resolution. Too many conflicting boundaries that have to be bypassed.
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CSM (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - I have survived the Richter scale "10" earthquake. Albeit, barely. It is just a question. What would you do? What would a reasonable person do? A vendetta would consist of naming the person and unit, which I would never do. I am listing the integrity issues and creating an environment for people to think of what solutions they can bring to the table. This will happen again. It is probably happening right now. We need tools in our tool boxes not more rocks in our ruck sacks.
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Intro to the western TV series Branded.
There isn't much meat here for the formulation of an opinion. But it sounds like a violation of Article 107 False Statement. Having said that, for enlisted personnel there may be some wiggle room in the sentencing if found guilty. For an officer, drummed out. Special trust and confidence. Pay no attention to the theme song, only visual.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKmJPnAGUJk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKmJPnAGUJk
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