Posted on Apr 27, 2016
What would you do if your CSM was ignoring uniform and grooming standards? (CSM Flournoy)
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So this CSM from the the 8th MP BDE seems to be out of regulations. From the comments she has been corrected but she claims she is being harassed. I don't even understand how she got to be a CSM at a BDE. What COL out there is letting this happen? In one of the photos she is wearing stilettos in uniform. WTF? What kind of example is this. The worst is from a Facebook user that said:
"This one!!!! Holy **** she was in charge of us in Afghanistan!! I could go on and on about this toxic leader!! Trying to maintain professionalism but this one.....when a CSM so jacked up like this, she was laughing her ass off during our rehearsal of my brothers ceremony after he was killed in Afghanistan, she f***ing yelled at me because I "took too long saying my goodbye " as I'm f***ing crying kneeling in front of it. This post will probably get me in trouble, and ruin the rest of my army career as well as my day and my army experience."
What would you do if you were there? What if you were on command?
What should the Army do about this?
(Thanks to Army MP WTF Moments and it's followers for the photos.)
**************UPDATE************************
The 8th Theater Sustainment Command CSM will be travelling to the 8th MP BDE to have some one on one time with this CSM. It is amazing as leaders will do when they are being called out. He should have done that a long time ago.
"This one!!!! Holy **** she was in charge of us in Afghanistan!! I could go on and on about this toxic leader!! Trying to maintain professionalism but this one.....when a CSM so jacked up like this, she was laughing her ass off during our rehearsal of my brothers ceremony after he was killed in Afghanistan, she f***ing yelled at me because I "took too long saying my goodbye " as I'm f***ing crying kneeling in front of it. This post will probably get me in trouble, and ruin the rest of my army career as well as my day and my army experience."
What would you do if you were there? What if you were on command?
What should the Army do about this?
(Thanks to Army MP WTF Moments and it's followers for the photos.)
**************UPDATE************************
The 8th Theater Sustainment Command CSM will be travelling to the 8th MP BDE to have some one on one time with this CSM. It is amazing as leaders will do when they are being called out. He should have done that a long time ago.
Posted in these groups: 
CSM
Grooming Standards
CSM Grooming Standards
Edited 8 y ago
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 903
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What a pathetic excuse for a leader. This is a perfect example of the PX sergeant. You know the one...where you are leaving from staff duty and have a couple things to get on the way home...and they're there shopping for clothes at 1000 hours. On a weekday. While their Soldiers are on detail or at work. Not too much of a surprise after leaving Schofield about 2 years ago. I was in 45th Sustainment Brigade and we ended up being attached to the 8th MP Brigade when the 45th HQ was deployed to Afghanistan. Talk about playing favorites and an abundance of toxic leadership. Explains why this CSM appears to ignore standards, claims that she is above them, and then admonishes the ones that have the intestinal fortitude to e force those standards.
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CPO Bernie Penkin
LTC Erik Spike Thiesmeyer, Sr. - When I was in the Navy, we had a command the only allowed designer jeans to be worn by the crew along with collared shirts. Back in the '80s, the wearing of Levi jeans and t-shirts were considered an indicator of drug use.
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CPT (Join to see)
The MP take care of MP and the rest are baggage. My experience with an MP unit. There were exceptions with some of the peers and senior NCO's.
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SSG Gilbert Duran
I know what you mean stop to get your Joe's some water or something cause their on detail and you always see these people.
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Tales of personal encounters with this NCO aside...
If I take this at face value, it would appear that the good CSM is out of regulation. Undoubtedly she is aware of the regulation, having spent numerous years both enforcing it and on the receiving end of enforcement.
To directly answer the OP's question, if you observe a uniform infraction on someone, regardless of rank (that means PV2s, 1SGs, or LTCs alike):
1. Approach the Soldier in a proper position and attitude, maintaining your bearing - "Excuse me. My name is (SSG) Smith. I noticed that your hair is below the back of your collar and would like to give you the opportunity to square it away."
2. Most Soldiers will say "thank you" or "I'm sorry, Sergeant. I'll fix this right away" and life goes on. Occasionally, you will encounter a barracks lawyer or someone with a superiority complex and you have to go to step 3.
3. Remind them of their responsibility to remain IAW AR 670-1 at all times and suggest a third party weigh in. If that doesn't work,
4. Get their name and unit and report it to an appropriate level. You have done your part and it is the responsibility of their CoC to take further action if warranted.
What is absolutely not OK is to attempt to dismantle a CSM (or a PFC, for that matter) on social media in some righteous crusade to eradicate "toxic leaders". We are professionals, and that approach is decidedly unprofessional... dare I say, inviting scrutiny to yourself. Live the Army Values and maintain your bearing.
If I take this at face value, it would appear that the good CSM is out of regulation. Undoubtedly she is aware of the regulation, having spent numerous years both enforcing it and on the receiving end of enforcement.
To directly answer the OP's question, if you observe a uniform infraction on someone, regardless of rank (that means PV2s, 1SGs, or LTCs alike):
1. Approach the Soldier in a proper position and attitude, maintaining your bearing - "Excuse me. My name is (SSG) Smith. I noticed that your hair is below the back of your collar and would like to give you the opportunity to square it away."
2. Most Soldiers will say "thank you" or "I'm sorry, Sergeant. I'll fix this right away" and life goes on. Occasionally, you will encounter a barracks lawyer or someone with a superiority complex and you have to go to step 3.
3. Remind them of their responsibility to remain IAW AR 670-1 at all times and suggest a third party weigh in. If that doesn't work,
4. Get their name and unit and report it to an appropriate level. You have done your part and it is the responsibility of their CoC to take further action if warranted.
What is absolutely not OK is to attempt to dismantle a CSM (or a PFC, for that matter) on social media in some righteous crusade to eradicate "toxic leaders". We are professionals, and that approach is decidedly unprofessional... dare I say, inviting scrutiny to yourself. Live the Army Values and maintain your bearing.
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I remember when I was back in the the school house. One of the MSgt's was walking around in an old set of cammies without nametapes on (one of his super old sets that still had the USMC stencil). We didn't say anything.. because we were PFC's. What did we know (thought it was weird, but he was a MSgt). Later in the day, he comes in in Charlies and tells us "Look, if I'm jacked up, Tell me. I'd rather you correct me than wander around looking like an idiot all day."
Always stuck with me.
Always stuck with me.
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SGT John Hamby
SPC Anthony Caliguiri - i clicked on the link you provided & this is what it says An exact match for angelia-flournoy-00511497 could not be found.
The LinkedIn profile you're looking for isn't public or doesn't exist.
The LinkedIn profile you're looking for isn't public or doesn't exist.
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SSG Gregg Mourizen
I've corrected several leaders over the years. The worse was having to correct a BC during an open ranks inspection. Apparently no one wanted to tell him he still had shaving cream on his face. I was subtle and quiet about it, he fixed it quickly and continued on. this happened twice in my career. Both time I was thanked for the correction. A good leader will accept the correction and fix it.
Unfortunately, I have also been squashed for making an on the spot correction. Bringing it to the next level is not always possible, and often can lead to negative repercussions. Often, you have to ask yourself is it worth it to pursue the matter. You know, the Admin with the 6 inch fingernails, The hairpiece, that makes wearing the cover impossible. Pregnant soldier with an untucked PY shirt, Unshaven, Soldier with the shaving profile, and a full beard. Often, they are like that, due to leadership being lax. I have had to escalate such matters to their leadership, but you can tell when it wont make a difference.
I have seem Brigade commanders and CSM, throw their hands up in frustration, because they feel they are unable to fix this kind of problem. If senior officers and NCO's feel powerless, how can you expect the lower enlisted to speak up. I can see looking the other way, when a clearly wrinkle bombed soldier is on a work detail, but this should never be allowed in an office or a public setting.
When corrected, regardless of the rank of the corrector, or corrected, it should be taken care of as soon as possible, are practical.
In this case we seem to have a senior NCO, who needs to be correct herself, and apparently wont. From the sound of it, there is far more going wrong than just appearance. I have seen bad leaders destroy commands. The symptoms appear to be clear.
Something needs to be fix, excised from the wound.
Unfortunately, I have also been squashed for making an on the spot correction. Bringing it to the next level is not always possible, and often can lead to negative repercussions. Often, you have to ask yourself is it worth it to pursue the matter. You know, the Admin with the 6 inch fingernails, The hairpiece, that makes wearing the cover impossible. Pregnant soldier with an untucked PY shirt, Unshaven, Soldier with the shaving profile, and a full beard. Often, they are like that, due to leadership being lax. I have had to escalate such matters to their leadership, but you can tell when it wont make a difference.
I have seem Brigade commanders and CSM, throw their hands up in frustration, because they feel they are unable to fix this kind of problem. If senior officers and NCO's feel powerless, how can you expect the lower enlisted to speak up. I can see looking the other way, when a clearly wrinkle bombed soldier is on a work detail, but this should never be allowed in an office or a public setting.
When corrected, regardless of the rank of the corrector, or corrected, it should be taken care of as soon as possible, are practical.
In this case we seem to have a senior NCO, who needs to be correct herself, and apparently wont. From the sound of it, there is far more going wrong than just appearance. I have seen bad leaders destroy commands. The symptoms appear to be clear.
Something needs to be fix, excised from the wound.
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MSgt Alan Arnold
Sorry for an off-topic post but Sgt Kennedy's comment brought back memories of being 'squared away' in the wonderful post-WW2 uniforms. Those old uniforms were really something. When I was a young Marine Private at MCRD San Diego I and others in my platoon were issued Class B 'Herringbone' Utilities and 'Eisenhower' jackets. We were able to wear those for about 2 or 3 years or so after the Corps went to the newer 'blouses' and solid green utilities. We thought we were bad! That Ike Jacket wore great and those 'Herringbones' faded and creased beautifully and we strutted our stuff! Then the sharp starched Khakis got thrown out and utilities got bad, then worse as the years went by. Those post-WWII to early RVN eras were the days! Lastly, I have never seen a Marine NCO or higher pull crap such as the posts are about. The CSM should be snatched by the stacking swivel by the nearest Major and drug to the CO. The Marine Corps must be a lot different than the Army and I don't mean that as a slam. Maybe the Army should bring in a few Marine Sergeants Major to get things squared away!
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She was my CSM for 92nd Military Police Bn. Her hair was brought up the chain but nothing was done, at least in public. She was commonly referred to as "the bun" It was never brought up in social media like this. It was really hard to tell junior enlisted to adhere to regulations when the senior enlisted wasn't.
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LTC Tom Domino
Where was her CO in all of this? Why wasn't she/he doing something about her disregard for regulations? She/he is derelict in her/his duties.
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SFC Jim Ruether
Summary for Angelina Flournoy's Linkedin page
People and serving others while role modeling and inspiring the very best.
People and serving others while role modeling and inspiring the very best.
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LTC (Join to see)
LTC Tom Domino - My unit was mobilized under the 92nd MPs to backfill one of their companies that was deploying. her CO backed her unconditionally for some reason. I attempted to make on the spot correction with her on a couple of occasions and she blew me off and then ran straight to the CO and "tattled" on me which wound up with me being called in front of the old man and getting my ass reamed. After the 2nd time this happened, I actually got fired and farmed out to another unit on post. Worked out great for me because I got to spend 18 months as HHC Commander for that new unit as a 1LT.
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LTC Tom Domino
The other side of the story!! We have all run into unfair situations and needed to make the best of it as you did! At least a good thing cane out of a very bad and unfair situation! Your perserverence and attitude are to be commended. Well done.
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SSgt (Join to see)
No, she should not be removed, but she should have a meeting with her peers, so she understand what the Billet of CSM is and if she don't understand those duties, maybe remove her reefs and send her back to her shop so she can retire and have less responsibility and troops under her command.
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CW4 Tim Claus
If she cannot maintain herself to Army standards, and as expressed above, is a toxic leader, she needs to be told her services are no longer needed, pack her stuff up, and head to Ft. Living Room. There is no place in any branch of service for senior NCO/PO that play favorites, believe they are above regs, and terrible leaders. Let them go sell cars at 'Honest Joe's Used Cars'.
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From the picture I cannot tell that her shoes are incorrect.
However, if you have enough "courage" to post it all over FB and RP, calling out the unit, then have enough courage to walk into an IG or EO office and file a complaint IF approaching her, the commander, the 8 TSC commander and CSM (I'm not sure of the CoC and lines of authority any longer since it changed after I left 16 months ago), and sensing sessions haven't worked.
We sit through hours, upon hours of classes and online training to make this a public B fest and not know the correct actions to make when leaders fail to lead. Regardless of gender, race, or etc.
However, if you have enough "courage" to post it all over FB and RP, calling out the unit, then have enough courage to walk into an IG or EO office and file a complaint IF approaching her, the commander, the 8 TSC commander and CSM (I'm not sure of the CoC and lines of authority any longer since it changed after I left 16 months ago), and sensing sessions haven't worked.
We sit through hours, upon hours of classes and online training to make this a public B fest and not know the correct actions to make when leaders fail to lead. Regardless of gender, race, or etc.
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SPC Anthony Caliguiri
LTC (Join to see) - Yet you don't realize that the reason soldiers end up with bad attitudes is because of leadership like hers and quite possibly yours. Big deal she has paper follow her, what does that do to fix the problem now? They still see a CSM that does what ever she wants, regulations be damned and leadership that does nothing to stop it. That is the true cancer and the reason troops decide to give up and separate from the military. To think I have the power to weaken someone else is absurd, soldiers see a lot more than you would like to think. They know who they can go to and learn from and who to steer clear of, leadership included. So as I said before, keep thinking that what you are doing is making the Army better, I'll sit here and be glad I don't have to deal with the joke the Army is becoming.
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SFC D Brown
You can't fix stupid and ignorance and she has obvisoly let her rank influence her ability and is no longer a leader that leads from the front and has joined the masses. If you complain too much then you are the racist and therefore we get this kind of leadership damed if you do and damed if you don't
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LTC (Join to see)
SFC D Brown - It would appear she uses and abuses her rank and position.
There is the chance that someone caught in their own mess will lash out with race or gender cards, but when enough Soldiers say something it becomes apparent...ie where there's smoke.
COL Roberson used the race and gender card too to get to her rank and position. She harassed and bullied people until a Soldier committed suicide.
Again, we attend too many classes not to know what to do and how to behave. So, yeah you can give up, or you can continue to display integrity and courage. We all know "Pick your Battles" and "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." So I guess it comes down to what's important to you as a leader.
There is the chance that someone caught in their own mess will lash out with race or gender cards, but when enough Soldiers say something it becomes apparent...ie where there's smoke.
COL Roberson used the race and gender card too to get to her rank and position. She harassed and bullied people until a Soldier committed suicide.
Again, we attend too many classes not to know what to do and how to behave. So, yeah you can give up, or you can continue to display integrity and courage. We all know "Pick your Battles" and "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." So I guess it comes down to what's important to you as a leader.
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Cadet SGT (Join to see)
Sir, I believe they were referring to the heels she appears to be wearing in her service uniform.
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As a female BDE CSM and former Drill Sergeant, the way I wear my long hair meets AR 670-1 standards. I am charged with enforcing standards, so I have to meet the standards first. I do not think outing this Soldier through this medium is the way to handle this, though. Yes this should be corrected, but not in a way that humiliates the Soldier (violates DOD Joint Ethics Regulation and AR 600-20 Army Command Policy). This chould be better handled by the Soldier's NCO Support Channel - the CSM that is in the next Command up. If the Soldier refuses to meet the standard after been given the opportunity then the COL needs to step in. FYI I do believe there are three sides to every story. I have personally worn my uniform incorrectly when I was a ROTC Military Science Instructor. The purpose was a pop quiz for the Freshman Cadets, and they had to determine all the AR 670-1 violations and record them on the quiz. If they had taken pictures of me, they could have run wild with stories. Just sayin'.
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LCpl Frankie Rush
With respect CSM Baldwin, there have been several personnel that has served under her in this posting. From their response nothing has changed and it has been brought to superiors with no actions taken. They have tried the better way and nothing has changed.
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PO1 Donald Hammond
SFC (Join to see) - And just what is a "window licker"? Is this a disparaging comment about some group of people?
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SSG Patrick Sloan
PO1 Donald Hammond - No, not at all. This is a common reference to guys and gals who sit in the back of gun trucks or PSD trucks (civilian teams as well) and stare out the windows all day long. Yes, its a bit tacky but being a former window licker / trunk monkey medic, its all in fun.
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MSG Louis Alexander
CSM Baldwin – We are discussing an active CSM being within Army Standards, not some ROTC quiz. Any Senior NCO should have brought this up privately with this CSM during a staff meeting, and if this CSM continued the practice, notify the Commander who would take immediate action not await what the outcome of an NCO Support Channel investigation would recommend which would be completely hush hushed and nothing positive materializing. Someone suggested the SMA get involved, this too is a great idea. Have him get involved, nothing like demonstrating to the American soldier that standards are for everyone, not just a selected few. Besides, it wouldn’t surprise me if this particular CSM wouldn’t want to use a racial, if not religious card as an excuse.
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Choose your words carefully if you are still serving.
If not, fire away
If not, fire away
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SFC David Pratt
Firing away: her entire CoC should get a fucking letter of reprimand all the way through her two star. You're responsible for everything your troops do and fail to do: willful neglect at all levels. I'd be nuking that chain of command.
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SGT Krystal Stephenson
I still can't comprehend this, I've had some CSMs that were mean but they did their jobs , held the standards, and protected the green grass!
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MSG Louis Alexander
I reported CSM Flournoy to an Army Captain for both her appearance and work ethic two years ago, according to him months later, she was disciplined, evidently, she didn’t learn anything of value.
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PFC Bradley Campbell
i wonder if a cordless drill can screw a steel pot on her melon with deck screws?
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MSG Louis Alexander
Let’s all grow our hair into “Rastafarian dreads” and fit oversized hats, berets, helmets, protective masks etc. on our heads that’s meeting Army Standards rights?
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SFC Marcus Belt
SPC Anthony Caliguiri - Yeah...I saw that...because I am still a professional non-commissioned officer, I'll bite my tongue. Her subordinates deserve better.
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