Posted on Jan 7, 2016
What would you do if your Sergeant didn't know how to load a magazine?
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I just saw this video and felt like I was watching a multi-car accident on the interstate. It just got worse as it went on. What made it so bad as this was a SGT. The Safety was professional as he could be. Hats off to him. When I heard her say "I'm not Active Duty" I would have kicked her off the range. I am glad the Safety told her that she was a soldier and that he was a reservist too. If I was her CO I would have do everything I could to reduce her. But I think if you have a NCO like this in your unit the unit itself has a lot of issues in the first place. What kills me also is that she has a combat patch.
What would you have if you were the Safety?
Just so you know that you know it is believed that they Safety was a SSG just the same as was the soldier trying to load the mag.
https://www.facebook.com/Theseniorspecialist/videos/ [login to see] 43848/?fref=nf
What would you have if you were the Safety?
Just so you know that you know it is believed that they Safety was a SSG just the same as was the soldier trying to load the mag.
https://www.facebook.com/Theseniorspecialist/videos/ [login to see] 43848/?fref=nf
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 394
CPT Russell Pitre Well if you are not trained you are not trained. I guess her unit doesn't feel the need for PMI? What about BRM? It has been over 25 years since I went through it, but I am pretty sure the Drills cover that shit. On a different note, not making excuses but we can fuck up the easiest stuff at any time. While I was a BDE OPs SGM, I had a major brain fart and put my flag on the wrong shoulder of my shitty ACUs. At around 1200 a SSG told me I was fucked up (not his words) and told me about the flag. I was happy as a pig in mud that he had the balls to tell me I looked like a dumb ass. IMO that video was not necessary. Make the correction do the training with the Soldier on how to do it correctly and drive on. No need for this kind of shit to be put on the internet to ridicule and embarrass Soldiers. And that is the main purpose of sites like the one this video was posted on. This all IMO so take it with a grain of salt if you want.
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CMSgt Steve Pennington
SGM Wettstein is right on target. I had a similar range experience with an admin. type SNCO. I had just finished the first relay, and was waiting for the second relay to complete their course of fire, so I went to the range master and offered to coach the SNCO. We got through the course of fire, the SNCO qualified and we got off the range.
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CPT (Join to see)
This is exactly why we need to drill and train harder. This is basic knowledge, we should all know. I don't care if you are a desk jockey, or any other MOS. You need to know this and it should be taught during drill. You need to have the hands on training during drill, because when you train harder you bleed less. This is why when I see a soldier all ate up, I am not afraid to pull them aside and teach them the basics. We need our soldiers to be the best and with out the correct leadership great training will always be lacking. So if you are a leader, don't hide in your office during drill weekend. Lead by example! Ohh Rah Semper Fi!
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MSgt Neil Greenfield
Whether it's civilian or military, people are afraid to fail. This should have been an opportunity to train someone, not belittle. But some in leadership roles just want to punish, not educate. This is just BS.
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SFC Robert Walton
If i was the range Safety NCO/Officer and yes i have had both titles. First thing i would do Is have had the individual escorted off the range and paired up with someone to Teach that individual. Before they could return to the range. If they do not know how to load a Magazines it is likely they do not know about the weapon as well this in itself is a good way to have a range safety incident.
Last but not Least that individuals name would appear in my after actions report so the COC knows they need some additional training. This in NO Way is belittling! You are identifying a Problem and taking actions to fix it. Before someone gets killed on a range. It is the COC's responsibility to train these people prior to sending them to the range.
Last but not Least that individuals name would appear in my after actions report so the COC knows they need some additional training. This in NO Way is belittling! You are identifying a Problem and taking actions to fix it. Before someone gets killed on a range. It is the COC's responsibility to train these people prior to sending them to the range.
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Aside from the fact that it's in poor taste to film spot corrections and post them to social media...I'm hoping this is either a joke or a training film?
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Melissa Didericksen Didericksen
MSgt Pete Erkelenz - My husband spent about 12 years in the Reserves and they did their best to be prepared for deployment in fact that is when he deployed the most was when he was in the Reserves and when he was Active duty it was mostly stateside posts.
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Cpl Adam Rader
Or the coach.. It's more of a fuck up on her instructors for not recognizing she needs extra guidance
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SFC (Join to see)
When the filming becomes a spectacle and not for internal constructive use is where it goes wrong. The focus should be on training the untrained.....not filming the untrained.
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Oh sweet Jesus...
Yup, she'd be off my firing line quick, fast, and in a hurry.
First, she'd get some instructions... pointy side of bullet towards enemy, check?
Then she'd spend some quality time in the ammo shed loading magazines until she got it.
Not that I've never seen it before, but they had some exotic range procedures having that Sergeant load her own mags sitting at a picnic table behind the firing line with her rifle right there. Now I get that we're all grown-ups, but if she's any indication of the training level of the unit on the range, that ammo needs to be more tightly controlled. The whole reason you control ammo on a range is to prevent NDs (or worse).
Yup, she'd be off my firing line quick, fast, and in a hurry.
First, she'd get some instructions... pointy side of bullet towards enemy, check?
Then she'd spend some quality time in the ammo shed loading magazines until she got it.
Not that I've never seen it before, but they had some exotic range procedures having that Sergeant load her own mags sitting at a picnic table behind the firing line with her rifle right there. Now I get that we're all grown-ups, but if she's any indication of the training level of the unit on the range, that ammo needs to be more tightly controlled. The whole reason you control ammo on a range is to prevent NDs (or worse).
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SFC Nicole White
How about giving the soldier weapons instruction then putting her back on the firing line. Loading magazines wouldn’t teach her anything. But that’s the problem with leaders today. Punish soldiers for the leader’s failure to ensure the soldier is properly trained.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Nicole White - If you would have seen the video, you would understand why I said that.
I think PMI is something that you do before you get on the range. Once you are trying to zero, it is on you. Having said that, I know who my Soldiers are that are less proficient at marksmanship, and every time my unit is on the range, I am out there ensuring they use the fundamentals to get a good zero.
I am proud to say that in six years of being in front of a company, I have never had a no go on WQ. That is not an accident.
The NCO depicted in the video is clearly flustered by her inability to shoot accurately, and the tool hassling her while she tries to load ammo is unhelpful as well. Once your head is out of the game and fatigue has set in, you won't get a good zero no matter how many times she shoots. Clearly, she has qualified before or she wouldn't be an NCO. She needs to come off the line and chill a bit, then give it another go.
I think PMI is something that you do before you get on the range. Once you are trying to zero, it is on you. Having said that, I know who my Soldiers are that are less proficient at marksmanship, and every time my unit is on the range, I am out there ensuring they use the fundamentals to get a good zero.
I am proud to say that in six years of being in front of a company, I have never had a no go on WQ. That is not an accident.
The NCO depicted in the video is clearly flustered by her inability to shoot accurately, and the tool hassling her while she tries to load ammo is unhelpful as well. Once your head is out of the game and fatigue has set in, you won't get a good zero no matter how many times she shoots. Clearly, she has qualified before or she wouldn't be an NCO. She needs to come off the line and chill a bit, then give it another go.
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SGT Thomas Gorgas
got the following for this walking disaster: GET OFF MY RANGE, YOU ARE A NO-GO AT THIS STATION! They would not come back until they could demonstrate to me they knew how to properly load a magazine.
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MSG(P) Roger Billings
Listen that is a teaching point that should have been covered by her Sr. I have run many ranges the only thing I kicked anybody off the range for was safety. I spent almost 10 yes as a mob trainer I saw it all believe me
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"What would you do if your Sergeant didn't know how to load a magazine?"
Same thing I did when the Maj was unsure how to make her weapon "fire" the safety .. Maj the Safety has to be moved to the off position.
Or the BN CSM that informed me his weapon was broke.. "the top thing keeps getting stuck" Yes Sergeant Major, that's the slide lock, when you expend the last round of ammo from the magazine, the M9 has a slide lock to keep the "top thing" back and open.
Or the SP4 Cook that shot a round at my foot in Kuwait on the range... "Specialist, how about we leave the finger indexed along the top of the trigger well and weapon on safe until after the up signal is given and the weapon sights are on the target,, Um Kay?"
If they are willing to learn I'm willing to teach... One word of push back and it gets ugly
Same thing I did when the Maj was unsure how to make her weapon "fire" the safety .. Maj the Safety has to be moved to the off position.
Or the BN CSM that informed me his weapon was broke.. "the top thing keeps getting stuck" Yes Sergeant Major, that's the slide lock, when you expend the last round of ammo from the magazine, the M9 has a slide lock to keep the "top thing" back and open.
Or the SP4 Cook that shot a round at my foot in Kuwait on the range... "Specialist, how about we leave the finger indexed along the top of the trigger well and weapon on safe until after the up signal is given and the weapon sights are on the target,, Um Kay?"
If they are willing to learn I'm willing to teach... One word of push back and it gets ugly
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SGM Erik Marquez
Chief one of the best things about the army is we give junior leaders authority and responsibility
one of the bad things about U.S. Army is we give junior leaders authority and responsibility and Some don’t do with it what they should
one Junior noncommission officers “good idea” in how to solve “the problem“ was likely rectified when a more experienced leder observed what was going on.
Anyone that served for a length of. Observed WTF moments from every service branch
Most of my memories of those where army guys because I spent my career in the army
But I can still hear the Navy guy trying to explain how he accidentally fired on Mark19 round inside the wire when he ordered the young PFC watching the vehicles out of his hatch so we could get up behind the March 19 and take a cool guy picture
The marine lance corporal who threw a hissy fit at the army gate guard because only stupid army guys unloaded their weapons coming into the wire
Said marine shot the tire of his Hmmwv when he decided to squeeze the trigger after improperly clearing his rifle to show the gate guard it was unloaded
The Major who shot a hole in the roof of my TOC when ordered to clear his pistol
one of the bad things about U.S. Army is we give junior leaders authority and responsibility and Some don’t do with it what they should
one Junior noncommission officers “good idea” in how to solve “the problem“ was likely rectified when a more experienced leder observed what was going on.
Anyone that served for a length of. Observed WTF moments from every service branch
Most of my memories of those where army guys because I spent my career in the army
But I can still hear the Navy guy trying to explain how he accidentally fired on Mark19 round inside the wire when he ordered the young PFC watching the vehicles out of his hatch so we could get up behind the March 19 and take a cool guy picture
The marine lance corporal who threw a hissy fit at the army gate guard because only stupid army guys unloaded their weapons coming into the wire
Said marine shot the tire of his Hmmwv when he decided to squeeze the trigger after improperly clearing his rifle to show the gate guard it was unloaded
The Major who shot a hole in the roof of my TOC when ordered to clear his pistol
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MAJ (Join to see)
This is akin to the young PFC I assisted during an SRP who didn't realize that an 11B in the Army National Guard could be deployed to fight overseas. Apparently, the Recruiter forgot to tell him that was part of the job.
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SCPO John-florida Killin
For whatever reason, this NCO was not competent with her weapon. What I would do is facilitate sufficient retraining to ensure she became competent. If the lack of competency was through her own neglect or negligence, that would be documented in a performance evaluation. What I would not do is humiliate her and embarrass my command, or her command, on social media. That is unprofessional and bad soldiering.
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Capt Christian D. Orr
I'm reminded of the story told by one of my tech school instructors at the Security Forces Officer Course about this one ROTC summer field training student of his on the M9 pistol qual course: she turned to him, pointed the pistol at his gut, and, while squeezing the trigger twice, said "The gun's not working."
Then-SSgt Rodney didn't bother to elaborate what he did to that student.....
Then-SSgt Rodney didn't bother to elaborate what he did to that student.....
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One on one training and close supervision. The Army saw fit to make her a Sergeant, somewhere along the way her basic soldiering skills suffered. That don't mean she's a piece of shit. She may be fantastic at her MOS. Show her how to be a warfighter again, fix the problem. not the blame.
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SGM Erik Marquez
1stSgt Eugene Harless "That don't mean she's a piece of shit. "
Your point is somewhat valid, but that said, does a quality NCO go to training so willfully ill prepared?
Somehow I doubt said NCO was on her way to the NETOPS building when she was snatched by three hooded Infantry NCOS, blindfolded and dragged to the range unannounced, forced to remove the blindfold and handed a mag and loose rounds, then told LOAD IT OR ELSE..
Id bet she had ample time to acknowledge she was deficient in her prep for an upcoming range, take personal responsibility and seek out the training her unit clearly failed to provide in PMI (or she skipped out on doing that training)
Your point is somewhat valid, but that said, does a quality NCO go to training so willfully ill prepared?
Somehow I doubt said NCO was on her way to the NETOPS building when she was snatched by three hooded Infantry NCOS, blindfolded and dragged to the range unannounced, forced to remove the blindfold and handed a mag and loose rounds, then told LOAD IT OR ELSE..
Id bet she had ample time to acknowledge she was deficient in her prep for an upcoming range, take personal responsibility and seek out the training her unit clearly failed to provide in PMI (or she skipped out on doing that training)
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SP5 Jerry Couch
I fully agree with most of you one thing I realized there was a lot of soldiers made E-5 that should not be but like one 1sg said fix the problem not the excuse but I will say this if I was walking the line and seen that shit she would have been thrown of the range long as I was there just because that is putting soldiers life in danger but even just. Being a NCO if she needed to be retrained up she needed to be big enough to say I can not do that .
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CPT (Join to see)
Strongly agree! Positive corrective action till she can do it in her sleep. Pull the soldier aside and show her how it is done. Always lead by example.
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Everyone is yelling at me... I'm a reservist!!! I just wanted the free money, I didn't know I'd actually have to do Army stuff.
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SSG Edward Tilton
I was in a Reserve Military Intelligence Unit as an 11C. It was a constant struggle of me wanting to do soldier training and them wanting to send people for MOS training. I lost, there was real unit. It was there to arrainge the MOS Training. The Unit wound up being broken up as fillers for Regular Units during the Gulf War
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TSgt Denise Moody
When I joined the AF women weren't allowed to qualify on a weapon unless we got overseas orders. When I joined the Air Guard the units I belonged to didn't have a requirement to qualify with a weapon. Once I found out I could piggy back with another unit I got qualified, first on an M-16 then on a pistol. The first and last times I ever handled a weapon on duty. Luckily I already knew how to shoot ;)
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CW4 (Join to see)
Chief,
I really can't believe you would say that but than again it goes both ways. I went to IRAQ and our unit replace a AD Maintenance Company with the most FUBAR shit I had ever seen. I am not sure what they did for their tour other than police calls but it wasn't maintenance . The Active Component may excel in combat but in the CSS arena there is no comparison that the Reserve, National Gaurd out perform AD with ease.
I really can't believe you would say that but than again it goes both ways. I went to IRAQ and our unit replace a AD Maintenance Company with the most FUBAR shit I had ever seen. I am not sure what they did for their tour other than police calls but it wasn't maintenance . The Active Component may excel in combat but in the CSS arena there is no comparison that the Reserve, National Gaurd out perform AD with ease.
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SPC Jim Hart
I had the privilege of being a reservist before I went AD (pre-911). Our UH-1 unit was the FIRST aviation company to have goggles-qualified pilots and crewchiefs. We flew more hours under goggles than our AD counterparts on the installation, and were invited to training events to fly more AD units (Marines and Army) than our AD counterparts. We knew our shit.
We flew so many days during the work week, we actually ran out of fuel money one year trying to stay current (budgets got hit hard during the drawdown in the '90s).
That said, we took the firing range seriously, but we also understood that weapons familiarity (rifles and side arms) often suffered because of our other operations; Reserve units had some challenges when it came to lining up the moons and stars of the training calendars in the few days the unit was together -- God bless the training NCOs for what they could get done, and the civilian techs who worked on the birds full time to keep us in the air.
We flew so many days during the work week, we actually ran out of fuel money one year trying to stay current (budgets got hit hard during the drawdown in the '90s).
That said, we took the firing range seriously, but we also understood that weapons familiarity (rifles and side arms) often suffered because of our other operations; Reserve units had some challenges when it came to lining up the moons and stars of the training calendars in the few days the unit was together -- God bless the training NCOs for what they could get done, and the civilian techs who worked on the birds full time to keep us in the air.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - I would destroy anyone in my unit for uttering that abomination.
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LTC Paul Labrador
THAT is the bigger issue IMHO. Not everyone handles weapons routinely as a matter of their job in the military. Should an NCO be familiar? Yes. Can I blame her if she never had enough training or exposure? No. I CAN ding her on the "I'm just a reservist" attitude though.
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PO3 John Priest
I'm sure there's a difference between rappelling and repelling, just as I'm sure that in a war there is no difference between an activated reservist and a real time Soldier/Marine/Airman/Sailor. As the Range Safety person, I would have been more than happy to assign her a buddy who could teach her how do to it, while writing down the incident for her higher ups.
As far as the Range Safety's action with the video, not professional, not cool and probably should have been busted for it.
As far as the Range Safety's action with the video, not professional, not cool and probably should have been busted for it.
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1. I hold the Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant partially responsible as they have failed to make sure their Soldier's were properly trained and ready to go to the range. The NCO leadership failed this Soldier, individually, and the Commander of the unit. I would require the NCO leadership to answer for this. I would make it painful enough on them they would probably never make this mistake again.
2. I hold the individual partially responsible as: a) they are a NCO and failed to take the initiative to make sure they were ready to go to the range and b) their attitude sucked, making excuses and complaining. Totally unacceptable conduct for a NCO in my book. This individual needs to learn what being a NCO and a member of the NCO Corps means. The unit 1SG would need to convince me they had a satisfactory unit program as the evidence I'm seeing does not indicate there is one, and I would asked to be invited to sit in on their next class of NCODP on what it means to be a NCO.
3. I'd have the safety's ass handed to him. To me it appears he probably filmed this on his phone as it happened and then posted it on the internet for all to see. He would not make either mistake again in his life.
2. I hold the individual partially responsible as: a) they are a NCO and failed to take the initiative to make sure they were ready to go to the range and b) their attitude sucked, making excuses and complaining. Totally unacceptable conduct for a NCO in my book. This individual needs to learn what being a NCO and a member of the NCO Corps means. The unit 1SG would need to convince me they had a satisfactory unit program as the evidence I'm seeing does not indicate there is one, and I would asked to be invited to sit in on their next class of NCODP on what it means to be a NCO.
3. I'd have the safety's ass handed to him. To me it appears he probably filmed this on his phone as it happened and then posted it on the internet for all to see. He would not make either mistake again in his life.
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SFC Malcolm Haugen
Agree CSM. This is nothing short of failur on the part of the NCOs. We are the trainers. True story. In 1993, I had a young fresh E2 that deployed in my squad to Somalia. The first night he was on watch and scared S***less. So stepping out of my roster, I placed one of my senior E4 with him to guide him and reassure him. This was a urgent situation and fo4 a short time period made the specialist the young mans mentor. After a few weeks, he was molded quite well and in the two years he was with me, he did very well. As for the specialist, he retired four years after I did. What was best about all this is, I got a call from that MSG and was asked to come to his retirement. Sadly I couldn’t. My point is simple. Train and take care of your troops, what the do and become demonstrates your leadership.
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SGT (Join to see)
Reservist. That is a shame, you are still an NCO you like the money that comes with the rank, then accept the responsibility in that rank. Giving weak ass excuses show me that the individual is no more than a PVT and should have the rank to show it.
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As a new battery XO in an artillery unit at Fort Sill, I had half the enlisted people in the unit like that. Folks who could not perform basic maintenance on an M16, and who hit the target only by accident. I couldn't get extra ammo from the ASP.....you know the drill. We didn't have fancy simulators at the time. I decided to start taking the troops to the range on Thursday afternoons and, with some of my NCO's and a couple fellow LTs from other batteries, giving them personal, hands on training using my personally owned weapons and ammo they bought. Turns out the biggest problem was that they were all city kids, and scared to death of guns. Took a couple months, but by the time the next weapons qual came around, everyone qualified. Some of them became enthusiastic shooters. We even put together a team to enter into the Fort Sill Marksmanship competition. It takes patience, personal involvement, and a little imagination to fix what's broke. But that's what they pay us for.
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SSG Audwin Scott
MAJ Ron Peery - not at all. I will say as a former training NCOIC it is very difficult and costly to get additional ammo. So the time on the range to get soldiers qualified is crucial 1st time. You have the night fire and mask fire as well to consider.
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SGT Kenneth Stelly
City folk, afraid of guns, and they are in the Army and active duty..... Sounds like Basic Training failed to do their job.... This is Basic soldier skills... What happened to our Army?
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MAJ Ron Peery
SGT Kenneth Stelly - Actually, it got better. I started my career in an Army that was just a few years our of Vietnam, and was trying to apply the lessons learned. And in the Reagan years it was growing. In some cases, we took what we could get.
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CMSgt (Join to see)
LTC Paul Labrador -
Yes, Sir... "the Long-haired General" as my ex-husband used to call me. :)
Yes, Sir... "the Long-haired General" as my ex-husband used to call me. :)
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CPT (Join to see)
CMSgt (Join to see) - I have been called many things in the past. That doesn't seem to bad.
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