Posted on Aug 17, 2016
When did the military lose the art of smoking bags?
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When I came in Soldiers made mistakes and we were corrected by the judicious use of smoking bags aka lots of PT. As time wore on, there was less and less of this done and many excuses given by DS, DI's, NCO'S and as to the merits of new methods of corrective training. I'm asking ALL former DS/DI's and leaders as a whole, should we go back to doing it within guidance or forget it ever happened?
Discipline
Soldiers
00G: Drill Sergeant
Training Soldiers
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
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Nothing stressed me out as much as when the Matv I was in got hit with an ied. first time a mortar lands within 100 meters too. shooting wasn't comparatively as bad until I thought about getting hit in a major vessel. At a minimum, one of the ways teams work in the military is having trust in the ability of your peers. Granted, no one knows how they will react and people have varying degrees of they do. Causing stressors through a smoking or shouting is an inexpensive method. If someone breaks down when getting shouted at for example and can't carry a box of mre's, would that be acceptable to have happen as a leader that is trying to situation troops in an actual stressful situation. unless you want equality, some MOS should not have to give up their ability to make on the spot corrections, it only makes sense.
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SSG Warren Swan
"NO MOS should not have to give up their ability to make on the spot corrections. It only makes sense". Damn right.
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From a non-leader (yet) perspective:
Smoke sessions are invaluable. Not only do they teach the lesson needed in an unforgettable fashion, but they strengthen our forces exponentially. See, back in the day, we did not have NEARLY as many PT failures because our soldiers were strong. Why? Because when they screwed up, they got the dog sh*t smoked out of them. The extra PT helped them strengthen and condition themselves. And guess what? When the metal started meeting the meat, those same soldiers could readily and fairly easily sling their buddy up over a shoulder and haul a** out of the LOD.
Now follow this with the simple statement: Pain is a better teacher than paper. A counseling statement will make someone go "oh, okay, that wasn't right" for about a week, and then they forget all about it. But that paper follows them. However, you smoke a soldier's balls off, and he will learn and not forget because the memory of that pain will stick with him. Show up late? Okay. 500 pushups, 600 situps, 500 flutterkicks, and then you just hang out in the Front Leaning Rest until you fall out. Or Koala their happy a** out in the woodline. See if they show up late again.
Smoke sessions are invaluable. Not only do they teach the lesson needed in an unforgettable fashion, but they strengthen our forces exponentially. See, back in the day, we did not have NEARLY as many PT failures because our soldiers were strong. Why? Because when they screwed up, they got the dog sh*t smoked out of them. The extra PT helped them strengthen and condition themselves. And guess what? When the metal started meeting the meat, those same soldiers could readily and fairly easily sling their buddy up over a shoulder and haul a** out of the LOD.
Now follow this with the simple statement: Pain is a better teacher than paper. A counseling statement will make someone go "oh, okay, that wasn't right" for about a week, and then they forget all about it. But that paper follows them. However, you smoke a soldier's balls off, and he will learn and not forget because the memory of that pain will stick with him. Show up late? Okay. 500 pushups, 600 situps, 500 flutterkicks, and then you just hang out in the Front Leaning Rest until you fall out. Or Koala their happy a** out in the woodline. See if they show up late again.
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SSG Warren Swan
I agree. The argument which was dead solid was when does smoke interfere with NJP? It's a fine line, and there are those who could see the line and when to stop easily. The others who don't have tarnished a tool...a good tool, and forced the command groups hand to ban it. I believe a hard but solid addition to the PT manual could cover that and allow units to crank down harder with the overall intent kept.
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Well it happened when all the Nations of the world got together and decided not to keep score on the battlefield, and to give everyone a participation ribbon. Didn't you get invited to the conference?
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SSG Warren Swan
Sir I was invited MANY times, and the front leaning rest was the position of the day. No in cadence, just crank em till you puke. Puke? Drink water take a knee. Done? New exercise til you puke again. Water gone? Session MIGHT be over.....it can go indoors, and that's worse. Now I had a change to recharge and all hell is about to start again.
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All I know is this, when I came in and I screwed up, I got the hell smoked out of me as well. And I sure as sh*t learned from my smoking sessions.....but since others learn in different ways....who knows anymore
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SSG Warren Swan
You bring a GOOD point. Now I was just like you, even as a NCO sometimes, BUT the idea was two fold: 1. Instill the idea I made a mistake in my mind and listen to the corrective training behind it. It took less time to "Lay the pain" in me than to write a 4856. 2. The 4856 IS right behind this with the magic bullet. Which do you want? In my time two 4856 of the same offense meant some other colorful letters and numbers like Art15, 14/14 or higher with 45/45.
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They've gone soft. Uh, oh, they made someone cry? Better go get him a tissue!
*sniff, sniff *
At the end of BCT in 09, DS told us they couldn't even call you "Private" anymore. One of them called every soldier "troop"
I was like "man, this is what I signed up for? I expected Heavy Metal Jacket. Instead I got Little House on the Prairie. Of course I was at Ft Jackson...Relaxin Jackson
My husband's experience was a little different at FT. Sill in '96 but they only had all male BCT there. Makes alot of difference.
Going back to the beginning would sure weed out all the junk
*sniff, sniff *
At the end of BCT in 09, DS told us they couldn't even call you "Private" anymore. One of them called every soldier "troop"
I was like "man, this is what I signed up for? I expected Heavy Metal Jacket. Instead I got Little House on the Prairie. Of course I was at Ft Jackson...Relaxin Jackson
My husband's experience was a little different at FT. Sill in '96 but they only had all male BCT there. Makes alot of difference.
Going back to the beginning would sure weed out all the junk
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LTJG (Join to see)
I agree the army's gone soft, but I'm an advocate of not calling soldiers in BCT privates. The marines follow the philosophy that you're not a private or a marine until you pass boot camp. I feel this instills pride in your service and accomplishments which I've gotten the vibe we're lacking at least the soldiers I've been around in my short career
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SGT (Join to see)
That's weird because I went to BCT in '13. We had one DS that literally threw a private, and said "I am going to destroy your little c*** sucking a**" We also had one deliver a knee to a guys head during combative training because he used a "date rape choke". So I really don't see how they were kinder and gentler in 2009 than in 2013.
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SPC Amy Phillips
Well we did have a DS, about 5 foot nothing who was meaner than a....hornet? But I believe it was his small stature that he was making up for.
There was a little bit for cussing here and there but never directly at a soldier, just in general.
I spoke to my DS about becoming one myself and because she knew I didn't curse and prayed in the chow hall, she said I'd be the first of my kind. So it was no secret that there was cussing but no one ever put a hand on anyone, not even the 'up in yo face to give you a piece of my mind' type of pep talk.
It was lame.
But that's just my opinion
There was a little bit for cussing here and there but never directly at a soldier, just in general.
I spoke to my DS about becoming one myself and because she knew I didn't curse and prayed in the chow hall, she said I'd be the first of my kind. So it was no secret that there was cussing but no one ever put a hand on anyone, not even the 'up in yo face to give you a piece of my mind' type of pep talk.
It was lame.
But that's just my opinion
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The real question is "Will this correct the underlying cause?" or more often be used as a substitute for "punishment."
Just call a duck a duck is all I ever ask. If you are doing it as Punishment (which is not allowed because we have the UCMJ Process for that) then be honest about it. Sometimes Sweat is better than Paperwork.
But... is this going to make them "better" and actually "prevent" occurrence, or is it more likely to instill "fear" as a motivating force? Nothing wrong with "Object Lessons" if the person actually learned the intended lesson.
Think on this adage "Does yelling make someone LISTEN better?" or are they just going phase you out. Likewise, is PT going to make someone listen (or whatever) better?
Just call a duck a duck is all I ever ask. If you are doing it as Punishment (which is not allowed because we have the UCMJ Process for that) then be honest about it. Sometimes Sweat is better than Paperwork.
But... is this going to make them "better" and actually "prevent" occurrence, or is it more likely to instill "fear" as a motivating force? Nothing wrong with "Object Lessons" if the person actually learned the intended lesson.
Think on this adage "Does yelling make someone LISTEN better?" or are they just going phase you out. Likewise, is PT going to make someone listen (or whatever) better?
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SSG Warren Swan - Absolutely, however, and I pause for effect..... "many" would use smoking as the FIRST tool in the toolbox (before speaking).
Each of our corrective tools needs to be used as the situation dictates. We shouldn't have a "go to" tool (if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail). Unfortunately, when smoking is available... it is the simplest tool in the tool box, but not always the most effective.
Each of our corrective tools needs to be used as the situation dictates. We shouldn't have a "go to" tool (if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail). Unfortunately, when smoking is available... it is the simplest tool in the tool box, but not always the most effective.
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SPC James Harsh
From my experience during an ftx for example, there could be numerous reasons for a smoke session, as a group or singularly. About using this type of enforcement, I see positive effects. (Granted I had issues because I thought yelling was within my roe everywhere I went, especially drunk. No more) Constructively, think of a Joe (like me) that wouldn't know how to break down a weapon system like an M2. Say they lacked confidence, so to remidy it, they would be ordered to undergo the whole procedure- in a very colorful way. The next time and in other situations they may get better at it. If someone walks passed and gets there panties in a bunch because you're yelling at one of your soldiers, they can get bent.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SPC James Harsh - Right, but you highlighted the "correction" as well as the "incentive."
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LCpl Anthony Estrada
What is this, part of the new touchy feely military. Get rid of the stress cards. Getting put in the pit is good way to correct some bad behavior, when I was a kid and did something wrong, I got spanked. I didn't do it again. If it's bad enough there's always njp and so on. Time to get some balls.
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I never found the need to resort to this for anything other than a PT or weight failure honestly. I treated my people like adults and they acted as such for the most part. If they did not, well I had a library of 4856s (not sure if that is still the form number) I could use. Part of why I adopted that method was because smoking me never worked. I was pretty hard headed my first 2 years in.
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SSG Warren Swan
Good points, but somewhere you knew your Joes, and what would and would not respond to them. I'm not advocating doing away with the 4856, its SORELY needed, but there are those really simple offenses where is the 4856 required? Some respond to yelling. Others shut you out. 4856 has no bearing on some, where it brings the fear of God in others. Knowing Joe is everything.
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SGT David T.
SSG Warren Swan - What I did was I kept two counseling packets. One I showed 1SG every month. The other I kept locked up that had everything. It was there if I needed it but it wasn't included normally.
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SSG Warren Swan
SGT David T. - that's pretty smart actually. Most can barely have one complete months worth of counseling.
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SGT David T.
SSG Warren Swan - It's amazing what happens when leaders do their jobs. They always say they don't have time, but if they don't make the time they end up spending more time dealing with issues on the back end.
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The only issue i have with it is that then PT becomes a punishment.But PT is good for you... and good for me.
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SSG Warren Swan
But that comes under the discretion of you and the command. If you set parameters that are not broadcasted, then the smoke can be effective. Once like you said it becomes punitive, then it has to be stopped being you are jeopardizing other proceedings.
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1LT (Join to see)
True. Just my personality though i would want to be more creative with corrective action, i have never been a DS or an NCO but i can imagine that smoking can get kind of one sided and boring if you use it as your only tool. For instance, when i went thru BCT i saw a very funny and also very relevant corrective action for someone leaving their M16 behind, they were forced to carry this giant way over sized heavy ass model of an M16 for a week, i would die watching these clowns try to carry their tray at the DFAC and carry this thing, plus watching them do rifle PT with it was equally as entertaining.
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When I was in boot in 88, I got sent to 'Company Commander's Way' for some infraction I can't even remember (probably didn't line my dungarees up right or something). It was called that because all the CC's had to enter or leave work there, so recruits got sent to stand at attention along that walkway if they needed a lil smoke break. Of course, those insidious bastards took great delight in smokin' the hell out of us. I think I was there for like 2 hours before they sent me packing. It is singularly the tiredest I ever got, in boot. I never went back so it must have worked lol.
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SSG Warren Swan
" I never went back so it must have worked lol."..no it didn't. You just got smarter with it lol
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SSG Warren Swan
No Sir. Came in, in 1994. My "Stress Card" was my Drill Sergeant and how much "stress" he could lay on the PLT.
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LTC (Join to see)
SSG Warren Swan - my first duty assignment was at Ft Jackson, there were no stress cards back in the day.
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