34
34
0
This picture has stirred up some debate on Facebook because the Marine isn't saluting during the national anthem. In my nearly 10 years I have never seen a salute rendered indoors except when reporting to an officer or board, receiving a promotion or award, or by an individual on guard duty.
I've looked at AR 600-25 and it's not very clear to me. Armystudyguide.com says no you don't.
What's the correct answer?
I've looked at AR 600-25 and it's not very clear to me. Armystudyguide.com says no you don't.
What's the correct answer?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 128
AR 600-25 is not going to give you the answer on this. Army Regulations don't really apply to Naval Drill & Ceremonies.
You want the USMC Drill & Ceremonies Manual MCO P5060.20
1) Marines don't salute indoors.
2) We "generally" don't wear covers indoors, unless under arms (in possession of a weapon or on duty which is "figurative" armed).
3) The Marine in question is likely conforming to the Event: Cover on for appearances, but Gloves off (if we're outdoors in Blues gloves are on, if we're inside gloves are off).
4) The Anthem/Ensign rates a Salute or going to Attention, however, simply going to Attention would not "visible" on a stage, so rather than violating 1), he placed his hand on heart while at Attention which is a reasonable compromise.
So, he may have some "technical" errors but he maintains the Spirit of our (Naval Services) order in Priority and Protocol. No strict violations that I can see from the picture.
EDIT: Capt Joseph Olson Makes a GREAT point that there was "possibly" (I would say LIKELY) a Public Affairs/Information Officer there and this is a "Staged" Event, and the Marine had some "Directed" Actions.
The Location on the stage makes it "impossible" to face the Ensign (which is displayed on the screen), and "difficult" to face the Music to render Honors (without becoming a distraction to the Performer). This goes back to 3) Conforming to the Event.
You want the USMC Drill & Ceremonies Manual MCO P5060.20
1) Marines don't salute indoors.
2) We "generally" don't wear covers indoors, unless under arms (in possession of a weapon or on duty which is "figurative" armed).
3) The Marine in question is likely conforming to the Event: Cover on for appearances, but Gloves off (if we're outdoors in Blues gloves are on, if we're inside gloves are off).
4) The Anthem/Ensign rates a Salute or going to Attention, however, simply going to Attention would not "visible" on a stage, so rather than violating 1), he placed his hand on heart while at Attention which is a reasonable compromise.
So, he may have some "technical" errors but he maintains the Spirit of our (Naval Services) order in Priority and Protocol. No strict violations that I can see from the picture.
EDIT: Capt Joseph Olson Makes a GREAT point that there was "possibly" (I would say LIKELY) a Public Affairs/Information Officer there and this is a "Staged" Event, and the Marine had some "Directed" Actions.
The Location on the stage makes it "impossible" to face the Ensign (which is displayed on the screen), and "difficult" to face the Music to render Honors (without becoming a distraction to the Performer). This goes back to 3) Conforming to the Event.
(99)
(0)
SFC Rick Rhodes
SGT Mike Clark - As a retired Army Veteran and season ticket holder to the Tampa Lightning, I started saluting the flag at games in the indoor arena as soon as those two laws were passed. I think it provides a level of respect for the flag that non-veterans cannot show and brings honor to the flag and our brother's and sister's that gave the ultimate sacrifice.
(1)
(0)
(0)
(0)
COL William Oseles
IF "The Anthem/Ensign rates a Salute or going to Attention", then he should have saluted.
(0)
(0)
During Bush 43's watch, he signed an Executive Order which provided the RIGHT, not OBLIGATION, to all US military personnel, whether active, retired, Reserves, Guard, or simply former military personnel, to salute the US flag or render a salute during playing of the National Anthem: whether indoors or outdoors, covered or not covered, in uniform or in civilian clothes. The order was intended to clear up any confusion and to spell out all possible scenarios. However, under previous directives or even generations-old, military traditions, this Marine should be saluting. That said, he may simply be performing this "hand-over-heart gesture" to emphasize to the crowd the proper manner in which we all should honor our National Flag during the playing or singing of our National Anthem. My take.
(64)
(0)
SCPO (Join to see)
SPC Chris Ison you do it however it trips your trigger. I will salute whenever and wherevat that flag is waved. I earned that right the first day I served, even though I didn't leave for 33 years. All these Regs waving Squids and Jarheads can kiss my Grits.
(5)
(0)
SCPO (Join to see)
GySgt John Olson What's the SOB gonna do? Send US marshals after you and have you arrested?
(2)
(0)
SCPO (Join to see)
SPC Chris Ison Some dork? What is your problem? A citizen of this country wants to say thank you, and you have the fucking unmitigated gall to call him or her a dork? Personally......no I just decided not to go there. I'll let the RP system do the talking.
(1)
(0)
SGT Mike Clark
I love your forthrightness! I've known a few long-service Navy chiefs, and this must be a common characteristic. I was Army, but I love and respect the Navy.
(2)
(0)
If he is wearing his cover he should salute.
From US Navy Regulations Section 1205
"Whenever the National Anthem is played, all naval service personnel not in formation shall stand at attention and face the national ensign. .... When covered, they shall come to the salute at the first note of the anthem, and shall remain at the salute until the last note of the anthem."
So the actual question is should he have been covered?
From US Navy Regulations Section 1205
"Whenever the National Anthem is played, all naval service personnel not in formation shall stand at attention and face the national ensign. .... When covered, they shall come to the salute at the first note of the anthem, and shall remain at the salute until the last note of the anthem."
So the actual question is should he have been covered?
(49)
(0)
Sgt (Join to see)
To all that have never done a public relations event, the rules pretty much go out the window so that you can be seen but not be in the way and that you look like a marine corps recruiting add. It’s an event and so everything that marine was doing was gone over over and over again and practice runs were done just as many times as it was talked about. This isn’t a normal day of oh your passing through a building or watching a game in the stands in uniform or out.
(0)
(0)
MSgt Andre Stringer
GySgt John Olson - It was Col. R. Bruce Chrisholm telling me the flags were out of position.
(0)
(0)
I'm guessing the ensign is on the screen behind him, so no option to face the flag and salute, although I would have turned my back to the crowd and saluted anyway. Hand over heart is a civilian thing, never did it in uniform, never should be done in uniform. During the National Anthem, you stand at attention, face the flag or music. If you're covered, then you render the hand salute.
(21)
(0)
Sgt Carl Siegfried
I agree. I never remembered placing my hand on my heart during the National Anthem. In uniform, in doors, uncovered and not under arms, we came to attention. If you were outdoors you better be covered. Then you could render a salute. After my time in service I still continue to stand at attention during the anthem. I like the fact that we have been given the opportunity to salute. But I choose not to. I have rendered a hand salute on two occasions while out of uniform. During a procession of a service member who lost his life in Iraq. He was a young man in the Army who was from our small town. The other was at my fathers services when he passed. He was in the Air Force during Korean War. We always joked about each others branch of service.
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
(1)
(0)
Is it possible that this photograph was taken during the Pledge of Allegiance? Hey, I don't know. Indoors, Covered, No Gloves, No weapon. No Duty Belt. No Salute. The comments below are all solid. I know we all do things a little differently. But, not THAT differently. Lots of weird to me. Regardless, I will surmise this was a staged photo --someone wanted a Marine in Blues to add a little emphasis to the scenario.
SN Greg Wright Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS SSgt Terry P. PO1 William "Chip" Nagel SSG Jeremy Kohlwes Capt Tom Brown
SN Greg Wright Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS SSgt Terry P. PO1 William "Chip" Nagel SSG Jeremy Kohlwes Capt Tom Brown
(14)
(0)
LTC (Join to see)
No, this was during the National Anthem in Dallas, Game 2, second round Stanly Cup Finals with Blues and Stars. Regardless of regulations and all the experts here on Rally Point, I would have stood at attention and saluted in or out of my uniform. We have bigger issues than to criticize a Marine covering his heart during the National Anthem.
(7)
(0)
PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
Sea Service for the most part we consider it a faux pas to be covered indoors but like anything else there are exceptions. Personnel Inspections in Gyms, Military Retirements in Gyms and Indoor Article 15's when covered you render the Appropriate Salute. As Master at Arms to Chief of Staff, Commander Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command, I became a master of Ceremonies of Sorts for Scientist, Engineers and Technicians that Just Happened to Wear Navy Uniforms. LOL! As someone that has always been less than Orthodox I draw some great humor from the Irony of that Assignment/Collateral Duty.
(2)
(0)
CAPT Hiram Patterson
I attended a friend's military retirement several years ago and I was the bell ringer as the appropriate enlisted rank was not available. I was also an escort in the Miss Hawaii pageant many years ago - back when my choker whites still fit.
(0)
(0)
Never, if you're in the Navy or Marines. (Marines can, under arms).
PO1 Andrew Gardiner Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
PO1 Andrew Gardiner Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
(13)
(0)
CAPT Hiram Patterson
The only time we ever salute indoors would be at retirement ceremonies, CoC's, command inspections, and taking reports at unit formations. Certainly indoors in uniform when colors pass by. In ceremonies and inspections only specific people in the official parties salute, not the rank and file.
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
CPO (Join to see)
For the Navy Uniform Regulations it contains a addition that states to wear your cover indoors if ordered by higher authority. This is not mentioned in the Marine Corps regulations.
(2)
(0)
Unless times have changed, when I was in, Marines only salute when wearing a cover. You do not wear a cover indoors, unless you are under arms. Now the term under arms just does not mean that you have a pistol, but you can have a duty belt and be considered under arms.
Marines should never place their hand over their heart. Since the Marine is wearing a cover, he should have saluted properly. If he is in civilian clothes or in uniform without a cover, he should stand at attention.
Marines should never place their hand over their heart. Since the Marine is wearing a cover, he should have saluted properly. If he is in civilian clothes or in uniform without a cover, he should stand at attention.
(12)
(0)
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
The only change isn't if in uniform, what You said still applies. In civilian clothes though a change to Federal law under the National Defense authorization Act, Section 301, (a) allows the option, in civilian clothes for Military members, Veterans and Military retirees.
(0)
(0)
Great question. As I best recall when in uniform and indoors during the playing of the national anthem one typically stands at attention and doesn't render the hand salute. But then they are not usually covered. I think the rule is pretty simple actually. Covered - hand salute. Uncovered - attention. The observation about the Pledge of Allegiance is a different matter. I can't recall ever having encountered the question in almost 30 years of active duty! So now I'm a retiree and veteran and encouraged to salute at appropriate times while in civilian clothes. Whenever I'm at a ceremony outdoors I usually have a hat and salute the colors. But indoors? I'm used to just standing at attention but then feel I've messed up by not putting my hand over my heart as I would easily do during the pledge. Maybe we shouldn't worry about such stuff so much. Rendering appropriate respect to the event and honors is what is most important. I'm OK with the Marine in this photo.
(11)
(0)
I would agree with what several people have mentioned here. Since he is wearing his cover he should have saluted.
(8)
(0)
Capt Tom Brown
SSG Jeremy Kohlwes That's the first thing that comes to my mind even though he may be out of regs in different ways, a hand salute while covered would certain 'look' better and made a more positive impression on the civilian audience. A smart salute is more expected of military in uniform than a hand-over-heart which is associated with civilians.
(2)
(0)
PO3 Timothy Maslin-Boukouris
I agree whole heartedly. I'm quite sure this squared away Marine knows what he is doing! Semper Fi!
(0)
(0)
Read This Next


National Anthem
Drill and Ceremony
Saluting
Customs and Courtesies
