Posted on Jun 16, 2021
When is it "ok" for soldiers to deblouse while in garrison?
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Having been at Ft Bliss (dry heat) and now being at Ft Riley (Very humid heat) when is it acceptable for soldiers to modify the uniform? We are hitting heat cat 3 & 4 every day now and there's many solders (including my wife's unit) who work outside all day every day right under the sun which is tough. Up until recently there has been no issue with them (this specific unit is a UAS platoon so they're on an air strip for hours) taking off their tops due to the extreme heat. Recently they were told "Army policy says you're allowed to roll sleeves not take off tops so no more taking them off." Knowing a bit about how regs work there is no "Army policy" but rather a regulation that leaves it up to the local commander to decide (which is usually overruled by crusty grumpy 1SG's for no reason at all).
So my question is, because I can't find supporting regs to try and help out, when is it acceptable for soldiers to remove tops? Is it just never? Is it a local call from someone willing to take the heat round because at the end of the day as NCOs we are responsible for the welfare of our soldiers?
I am somewhat hoping a medical person will chime in with the heat index recommendations or something along those lines but overall I'm curious on your thoughts.
So my question is, because I can't find supporting regs to try and help out, when is it acceptable for soldiers to remove tops? Is it just never? Is it a local call from someone willing to take the heat round because at the end of the day as NCOs we are responsible for the welfare of our soldiers?
I am somewhat hoping a medical person will chime in with the heat index recommendations or something along those lines but overall I'm curious on your thoughts.
Fort Riley
Uniforms
NCOs
Army Regulations
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 198
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What is the problem with it I had female Marines working for me and they all took off their utility jackets when it was warm We all did Okinawa and southern California both get very warm So if you expect your Marines to do their job then it is not a problem My Marines meant everything to me I wanted them to perform and they did and I was fully behind what they wanted to do We were very near our group HQ but we were working Marines not poster Marines
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I did a JRTC rotation many years ago in a desert environment and our Battalion cooks were getting cooked alive in the chow tent (which of course was olive drab canvas).
I was in the chow line and overheard the cooks saying how it must be over 120F inside the mess tent. Being a curious weatherman, I got my trusty Kestrel and went back to the chow tent and convinced the NCOIC to let me hang it above the serving line just above head level. Then I hung out until our LTC commander came into the tent.
I shanghaied him and pointed out how crazy hot it was in there (actually a measured 130F!!!) and commented how it seemed appropriate for the cooks to be allowed to take their tops off while in the tent. He agreed and ordered it to be done as he didn't want the cooks passing out (heat casualties).
Needless to say, I made friends in the chow section that day!
Moral of the story: always take care of the people that make and serve you food! (oh, and the supply sergeants also...never get on their bad side....unless you're dealing with CIS....they're punks).
I was in the chow line and overheard the cooks saying how it must be over 120F inside the mess tent. Being a curious weatherman, I got my trusty Kestrel and went back to the chow tent and convinced the NCOIC to let me hang it above the serving line just above head level. Then I hung out until our LTC commander came into the tent.
I shanghaied him and pointed out how crazy hot it was in there (actually a measured 130F!!!) and commented how it seemed appropriate for the cooks to be allowed to take their tops off while in the tent. He agreed and ordered it to be done as he didn't want the cooks passing out (heat casualties).
Needless to say, I made friends in the chow section that day!
Moral of the story: always take care of the people that make and serve you food! (oh, and the supply sergeants also...never get on their bad side....unless you're dealing with CIS....they're punks).
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This one really gets me, they were probably told that by someone spending the day in A/C. Sometime in 1968 during a rough firefight some Major in a LOH called down that the men should have their fatigue shirts on. Most troops were either shirtless, or with just a flack jacket on, mind you this was in paddies with maybe 6-8" of water and it was hot. Whats more is most knowledgeable guys would rather be shot or get shrapnel without fabric being added to the wound. Well my Co who had real balls told that Major, either land that bird and tell my men that, or go back to the rear. Our unit earned a PUC during that time and the CO became the Division Generals Adjutant because of how good he was. RIP Capt. Haywood.
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I had a brigade XO tell me once that regulations are a guide not written in stone. As such a leader can adopt and overcome as situation requires. Unfortunately many people in command positions are not leaders and have not figured this out. They go strictly by the book because that is all they understand.
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CPT Earl George
When I was in germany (72-75), you wore your fatigue shirt out not tucked. It was worn tucked in here in the states. Anyone else here remember this??????????
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SPC William Robinson
CPT Earl George - I remember wearing my fatigue shirt out and not tucked. I also remember being able to take our shirts off and being allowed to work in our office in our t-shirts. When we had brass show up, then shirts went back on.
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Suspended Profile
You nailed it, LTC.
SPC William Robinson
Too many losers being promoted to high rank who were more concerned about BS than soldiers defending this country!
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Well SFC you are right about the toxic leadership in today’s Military Way to many leaders today only look after themselves and careers starting with Miley the most worthless General there is
Leadership need to stand up for their troops I believe if a soldier falls out from heat exhaustion which I would never like to see things would change even if a soldier said they had had it Wink!
My Army would look after their troops
This new army does not have a backbone
Leadership need to stand up for their troops I believe if a soldier falls out from heat exhaustion which I would never like to see things would change even if a soldier said they had had it Wink!
My Army would look after their troops
This new army does not have a backbone
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Usually, there are medical alert or heat advisories stating once the heat index reaches XXX degrees, you can work in cycles or "deblouse". If I were you, I check with the Medical Services group, Safety Office, or review local policies concerning weather issues. Something should be in writing concerning heat advisories.
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When the Commander says so, so long as it doesn't violate any senior Commanders policies.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
SFC Michael Hasbun Uniforms are usually a SNCO call. When I was the Provost SGM at Bragg, I made the call that gate personnel could wear the fleece hat when it got under 45ish. Garrison CSM called me and asked who authorized it and I told him I did and the reasons for it and he was cool with the decision.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SGM Steve Wettstein as a matter of habit, yes, that usually falls into our lane. But as a matter of Doctrine, its the commanders call. AR 670-1 specifically grants uniform modification authority to commanders.
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When I was in, every morning for PT.
Who is IIC, (idiot in charge) who never comes out of his A/C office?
Who is IIC, (idiot in charge) who never comes out of his A/C office?
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Preventive Medicine Officer here.
Your looking for:
TB MED 507: HEAT STRESS CONTROL AND HEAT CASUALTY MANAGEMENT
-Ch 3, Fig. 3-1, Uniform Modification
-Appen. D, D-5, e. Clothing Modification
OR
ATP 4-12.25 UNIT FIELD SANITATION TEAMS
-Ch 7: Heat, 7-35
Heat category 4 and 5 —
Unblouse trouser legs and unbuckle web belt.
Remove T-shirt from under uniform top or remove uniform top down to T-shirt (depends whether biting insects are present).
It’s always a hard recommendation since the social norm is that we remain in full uniform regardless. As long as you can justify it as best interest of the Soldiers, the back end isn’t typically to harsh. Deblouse, retain the PC, and apply sunscreen. If possible toss them a tailgate tent, a cooler for ice and water, and your golden. Cooler can also be heat mitigation as a forearm immersion tank.
Hope this helps
Your looking for:
TB MED 507: HEAT STRESS CONTROL AND HEAT CASUALTY MANAGEMENT
-Ch 3, Fig. 3-1, Uniform Modification
-Appen. D, D-5, e. Clothing Modification
OR
ATP 4-12.25 UNIT FIELD SANITATION TEAMS
-Ch 7: Heat, 7-35
Heat category 4 and 5 —
Unblouse trouser legs and unbuckle web belt.
Remove T-shirt from under uniform top or remove uniform top down to T-shirt (depends whether biting insects are present).
It’s always a hard recommendation since the social norm is that we remain in full uniform regardless. As long as you can justify it as best interest of the Soldiers, the back end isn’t typically to harsh. Deblouse, retain the PC, and apply sunscreen. If possible toss them a tailgate tent, a cooler for ice and water, and your golden. Cooler can also be heat mitigation as a forearm immersion tank.
Hope this helps
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