Posted on Apr 6, 2016
When will the Military stop conforming to the volunteer and start upholding the standard rules and regulations?
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No Saluting, Less formations, Grow a beard for religious beliefs, ETC... Everyone signed a contract to abide and to adhere to ”All Military Rules/Regulations and Traditions “. Today, it seems that the Army is conforming to the Volunteer. The New Army Standard is: Conform to the Soldier and discard rules/regulations and tradition. Leaders, where does is stop?
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 45
Well, that's a good question. As an "old soldier," I remember the "good old days" when I got whacked over the head with my own M-14 by a Drill Sergeant who thought that it wasn't clean enough. We didn't have TBI, we were just "knocked out." PTSD was just "malingering."
Some things have changed for the better, but these days, it seems like politics has gotten more and more into everyday military life. During the Vietnam era, politics prevented us from bringing home victory. Sound familiar? Now when it comes to standards and regulations, I think you are right. I was a volunteer, too. I tell people "I enlisted to avoid the draft...does that make me a 'draft dodger'?" I remember when Sikhs (spelling?) were allowed to wear their turbans, but that's about the only aberration to the uniform code that I can recall. One guy, whose face was burned badly in Vietnam, was allowed to grow his hair long to cover up the scars that used to be his ears. He was reclassified from Infantry to Mortuary Attendant, because he didn't want to be exposed to so many of the shocked looks that his face got him. You can sort of understand these things. Personally, I don't like facial and neck tattoos, ear-rings and other things like that, on or off-duty for a military person. If you want to go "all the way back," then you are looking at the Woman's Army Corps (WAC), which I also recall. Women were clerks, cooks, and medical, and stayed as far away from combat as we could get them. What about that? I'm not being critical, just looking back from an old soldier's perspective.
By the way, remember the old saying that begins with "Old soldiers never die...?" It is a quote from WWII General Douglas MacArthur. I have re-written the end of that quote so that it now reads:
"Old soldiers never die...they just SMELL that way!"
Keep your chin up, little Sister...your time in service is worth all of your blood, sweat and tears. Thanks for your service!!
Some things have changed for the better, but these days, it seems like politics has gotten more and more into everyday military life. During the Vietnam era, politics prevented us from bringing home victory. Sound familiar? Now when it comes to standards and regulations, I think you are right. I was a volunteer, too. I tell people "I enlisted to avoid the draft...does that make me a 'draft dodger'?" I remember when Sikhs (spelling?) were allowed to wear their turbans, but that's about the only aberration to the uniform code that I can recall. One guy, whose face was burned badly in Vietnam, was allowed to grow his hair long to cover up the scars that used to be his ears. He was reclassified from Infantry to Mortuary Attendant, because he didn't want to be exposed to so many of the shocked looks that his face got him. You can sort of understand these things. Personally, I don't like facial and neck tattoos, ear-rings and other things like that, on or off-duty for a military person. If you want to go "all the way back," then you are looking at the Woman's Army Corps (WAC), which I also recall. Women were clerks, cooks, and medical, and stayed as far away from combat as we could get them. What about that? I'm not being critical, just looking back from an old soldier's perspective.
By the way, remember the old saying that begins with "Old soldiers never die...?" It is a quote from WWII General Douglas MacArthur. I have re-written the end of that quote so that it now reads:
"Old soldiers never die...they just SMELL that way!"
Keep your chin up, little Sister...your time in service is worth all of your blood, sweat and tears. Thanks for your service!!
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As soon as the New Generation of NCO's take back the role of Leading. My Generation would have never put up with this shit. No one is held accountable any longer simply due to putting asses in seats and filling the ranks with sub-standard civilians. That's when. Have a good day.
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The day the Army ended was the day they told us that infractions have to be dealt with recorrective training in kind.
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I concur with Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS and I'll add regulations and traditions evolve, some go away for periods of time, then come back, others just go away due to various reasons. The fresh shaven look regulation hasn't exactly been around since the beginning of our military. The biggest argument is due to the wearing of a gas mask. There's several studies that validate that facial hair does cause a varying degree of leakage - but so does a clean shaven face...on a much smaller scale. You can simply counter that by mandating a person to be shaved during a deployment in which CBRNE is imminent or reasonably believed to be a enemy threat. In garrison - outside of going to the gas chamber...there's not much CBRNE threat within CONUS.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6702601
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6702601
Effect of facial hair on the face seal of negative-pressure respirators. - PubMed - NCBI
Am Ind Hyg Assoc J. 1984 Jan;45(1):63-6.
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SFC J Fullerton
Grooming standards aren't going away anytime soon, nor should they. The exception given to the Sikh officer is just that, an exception. I am sure he accepts the risk of his facial hair interfering with the performance of his protective mask.
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MSgt (Join to see)
The reason Hitler wore his half stache; in ww1, his full mustache almost cost him his life when he didn't get a seal on his mask.
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Unfortunately politics drives regulations and once regulations and policies have been added to the Military it is hard pressed to revert them. This is one of the few times when I advise Service members to be very aware when they vote. Politics is challenging but without your vote you cannot complain. VOTE and good luck.
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I was made for my time. I'll be ready and willing to fade away and leave the new world to the younger generations. I have groomed my children to not have children. If they do I am sad that they'll never know my world. Change is inevitable and it's extra sad knowing that the last of the 'old school' toughness (our military) is going the way of appeasement. It's been 28 years since my time but I hate what I constantly hear from the new Armed Services. Oh well.
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SSG Bonnie Stiriz
I think changes are generational. When I was active duty 85-97, I would hear the generation before me say the same. Running in combat boots verses sneakers, etc. My time required mental toughness, adherance to army regs and respect to the chain of command. My time was more of a peace time, but I felt equally trained and ready for anything I was called to do. I hope that the powers to be are monitoring the current "state of affairs" and are capable enough to make way for service to our country. There has got to be a measurable balance. Leadership is a most challenging and rewarding honor that should not be taken lightly. Our lives depend on it.
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I actually never signed a contract to abide by traditions. Regulations, yes.
Just because someone does something a different way (provided that the new way is legal, moral, and ethical) doesn't make that way or that person wrong. Even if that is not the way "it had always been done." (And beards are authorized , BY REGULATION, for religious OR medical reasons.)
The primary purpose of the formation was mass communication. The secondary purpose was accountability. There are more reasons, but these two are far and away the most important. In today's digital Army, we no longer NEED the formation to ensure rapid and accurate dissemination of information to the masses. Accountability is still accomplished in accountability formations, and thru 1st line leaders. The formation is no longer as important, therefore there are less of them - which means less time standing around, more time DOING. This is a GOOD thing.
There are no Salute zones, and every single one has a legitimate reason like not identifying Officers to snipers downrange). Outside of that, salutes are still required.
I am not sure where you are going, but the examples you used are poor ones to get there.
The Army is made up of people. It is a Human Resources truism that in order to get maximum efficiency, policies and procedures must both be created and adapted with the specific workforce in mind. The Army of the 2010s is not the Army of the 1770s. It isn't even the Army of the 2000s. We adapt to the situation on the ground. Part of that ground truth is the identity of the people making up the fighting force.
If you are REALLY that concerned with traditional military roles, I suggest you either A) become a nurse and volunteer to support the military (but not actually be IN the Army) or B) find a good Army husband who you can support at home by cooking and making babies. Offensive, right? But after all, that is the TRADITIONAL role of a female in the military. If we can adapt to accommodate the growing role of women in the military, the workforce, the WORLD, why can we not adapt to accommodate Sikhs, or Jews (who are allowed to wear head covering indoors, in most situations), or transgender, or whatever else a changing society requires?
Just because someone does something a different way (provided that the new way is legal, moral, and ethical) doesn't make that way or that person wrong. Even if that is not the way "it had always been done." (And beards are authorized , BY REGULATION, for religious OR medical reasons.)
The primary purpose of the formation was mass communication. The secondary purpose was accountability. There are more reasons, but these two are far and away the most important. In today's digital Army, we no longer NEED the formation to ensure rapid and accurate dissemination of information to the masses. Accountability is still accomplished in accountability formations, and thru 1st line leaders. The formation is no longer as important, therefore there are less of them - which means less time standing around, more time DOING. This is a GOOD thing.
There are no Salute zones, and every single one has a legitimate reason like not identifying Officers to snipers downrange). Outside of that, salutes are still required.
I am not sure where you are going, but the examples you used are poor ones to get there.
The Army is made up of people. It is a Human Resources truism that in order to get maximum efficiency, policies and procedures must both be created and adapted with the specific workforce in mind. The Army of the 2010s is not the Army of the 1770s. It isn't even the Army of the 2000s. We adapt to the situation on the ground. Part of that ground truth is the identity of the people making up the fighting force.
If you are REALLY that concerned with traditional military roles, I suggest you either A) become a nurse and volunteer to support the military (but not actually be IN the Army) or B) find a good Army husband who you can support at home by cooking and making babies. Offensive, right? But after all, that is the TRADITIONAL role of a female in the military. If we can adapt to accommodate the growing role of women in the military, the workforce, the WORLD, why can we not adapt to accommodate Sikhs, or Jews (who are allowed to wear head covering indoors, in most situations), or transgender, or whatever else a changing society requires?
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Back in my day....
Seriously? I am Gen X, when I went in, those of us in Gen X were supposed to bring about the end to discipline in the military. We were undisciplined, could not follow orders, etc., etc., etc..
The Army is the Army - some things, will change. Others, will stay the same - it appears the one thing that stays the same is that those with 10-20 years in will bitch and complain about the lack of discipline amongst the newest batch of junior enlisted.
Seriously? I am Gen X, when I went in, those of us in Gen X were supposed to bring about the end to discipline in the military. We were undisciplined, could not follow orders, etc., etc., etc..
The Army is the Army - some things, will change. Others, will stay the same - it appears the one thing that stays the same is that those with 10-20 years in will bitch and complain about the lack of discipline amongst the newest batch of junior enlisted.
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We veterans experienced the same things years earlier 70's and 80's VOLAR Army. Serving beer in the mess halls, 2 beer lunch. LOL This was in my AIT unit. Sat through several Blue Ribbon Committee's surveys. Things they were proposing just boggled one's mind. Are we still in the Army or is some type of frat-house organization I thought to myself and I was just a SP4, when those type of changes were made. The changes were brief in nature and reverted back to a normal Army/military. We must uphold ourselves to a higher standard.
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That, like I have said many times, is on you. I always enforced standards. I didn't have my subordinates on my Facebook. I wasn't trying to make friends with them. I held everyone regardless of rank to standards. If you perceive there is an issue, fix it. If not then truthfully you are the problem. If I had a Soldier who didn't salute then they would be doing something to find out why they should. and if they failed at that order than it is time for more serious action which is supported by the counseling directing them to Unf*** themselves. Change is not conforming to Soldiers. Change is bettering the military. We change equipment to get better stuff. We change grooming standards to get people that might provide some kind of asset to the force. all other standards must be enforced until change is needed. However those changes are not lackadaisical. They are targeted and to serve a purpose.
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