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Posted on Jun 18, 2015
SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales
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Atheists in the military, many of us are in the closet about it.
Why is this?
My reasoning is because I would never want to tell someone what they should and should not believe (that's impossible). However, I think it's ridiculous that I have to participate in bowing my head in "group prayer" at award ceremonies and graduations.
I have never attacked anyone based on their beliefs.
Some how it's okay for theists to share their views on religion, but I'm not allowed mine? Why is my opinion considered a threat?
I think freedom from religion should be more widely accepted in our military.
Thoughts?
Posted in these groups: Atheism symbol AtheismWorld religions 2 Religion
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CSM Brigade Operations (S3) Sergeant Major
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I don't bow my head during the invocation/prayer. NOBODY can make you do that!
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LCpl Mark Lefler
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I'm an atheist, generally I dont let ceremony bother me, its tradition, tradition is just something the military does.
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PFC Human Resources Clerk (S1)
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I wish more people thought like this.
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WO1 Intelligence Officer (S2)
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SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales
I don't bow at prayers or invocations.
My dog tags have said Atheist on them since day one.
I agree it is ridiculous that there is an invocation during every ceremony.

Theists can share they're religious views because there beliefs are similar. Different sects of Christians, or Jewish, or Muslims agree on the big picture, their god created the universe. They can argue over whose god is right. As an Atheist your view is seen by the more fundamental members as a threat. It can pull members from the flock.

Ultimately I hope both the religious and non-religious Soldier are striving for truth. But if you run into a fundamentalist on either side of the religious debate in your unit or chain of command, just tell them that talking about this topic with them makes you uncomfortable. And if they don't stop, or they use their position to negatively influence you because of yours, report it through the appropriate channels.
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SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales
SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales
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I think you're one of the few people who could actually relate to my post. I guess other people misunderstood my intentions. This post wasn't about hurt feelings, but if anyone else experienced that same.
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WO1 Intelligence Officer (S2)
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SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales
Thank you. There are a bunch more of us on here. But I haven't seen them in this thread yet.
1LT L S SPC (Join to see) among many others.
Whenever you say the A-word in a thread like this, you will get commenters who prove your point.
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Why are so many atheists in the military "in the closet"?
Capt Seid Waddell
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Edited >1 y ago
SPC AnnMarie Gonzales, your beliefs are as valid as any one else's. And pushing one's beliefs onto others is never appropriate - in either direction.
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SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales
SPC(P) AnnMarie Gonzales
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Yes completely I agree.
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SSG Program Control Manager
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You also have to recognize that you are in the minority and that not everyone in your chain of command is going to be tolerant of different beliefs. Sometimes discretion is still the better part of valor.
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Capt Seid Waddell
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SSG (Join to see), agreed. And the better part of wisdom as well.
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SPC David Hannaman
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As a rabbi, I have always been very troubled by mandatory prayer in Jesus' name. While the majority of our country are Christian, the First Amendment Separation Clause makes it very clear that this is NOT a "Christian Country".

The reality is that the majority in the military are conservative and Christian - to be something other is often a handicap, so many keep their views private, and suffer as part of the group. I know I did, and I'm not an Atheist, so it must be worse for you...
Sgt Tom Cunnally
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Rabbi Very well stated..& thank you for your service as a Navy Chaplain..
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Thanks Sgt Tom Cunnally, but actually I was a regular line officer. I'm one of those breed that go to seminary after retiring from the military... I wish I could have gone back in as a chaplain during the OIF/OEF wars, but it wasn't God's will...
SPC David Hannaman
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I come from a highly legalistic, completely hypocritical, religious background, so there were a number of years when I was in the service that I was very ANTI-God.

During that time I bowed my head during prayer out of respect... not out of belief. Call it meditation, call it a moment of silence... I certainly wasn't participating in someone else's faith.

I draw a parallel between that and the playing of the National Anthem. When I personally hear the music, it takes me to a different place and mindset, it fills me with pride, thoughts of comrades and country... there are times when it even brings a tear to my eye... not everyone feels that though, as evidenced by the guy playing on his phone... I can't make him feel what I feel, but I do think it's common courtesy for him to show respect.

I eventually came to terms with my FAITH... but I still have feelings ranging from pity to spite for religion. Some of my friends that display the most morality and integrity identify themselves as atheists, and some of the worst cases of theft have come from people who loudly advertise themselves as Christians.

Sometimes it's just a case of doing as the Romans do when in Rome.
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SSG G3 Aviation Air Movement Request Nco
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SPC David Hannaman, the thing is, as I see it, that specifically in this country, when the National Anthem plays you DON'T have to do anything special. We, as servicemen and servicewomen have something of an obligation to behave a specific way, but that is because of our chosen profession...it is not a behavior that is simply a given. With the exception of laws, there aren't any of those in this country...and that is as it should be. Similar to the people who deface the flag. While disrespectful in my view, unless in uniform (meaning figuratively as well as literally) it is well within their rights to do so.

But, the military is a National organization, not a religious one. It makes sense to behave in ways which indicate respect for our nation. It does not follow, regardless of the percentages involved, to behave in ways that show respect to (any) religion. I am not suggesting disrespect is appropriate. I am suggesting no official acknowledgement, positive or negative, other than just that they exist, of any religion.

Before someone says something silly, not acknowledging any religion is not the same thing as acknowledging that there is no religion.
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SPC David Hannaman
SPC David Hannaman
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SSG (Join to see) - Except that there are laws governing people defacing the flag, Specifically the "Flag code" in the case of handling and display of the flag, (http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf) and in the case of actions during the playing of the national anthem: U.S. Code › Title 36 › Subtitle I › Part A › Chapter 3 › § 301 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301)

That said, do I want the "Gestapo" running around enforcing either? No... that would just be another example of wasted time and resources... I would however like to see it enforced in cases of blatant disrespect.
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SSG G3 Aviation Air Movement Request Nco
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SPC David Hannaman, they are not "laws"...they are codes (read: guidelines) about what is and isn't acceptable/respectable....what you are "supposed" to do. They are not enforceable...you (except under UCMJ...so, not civilians) cannot get into trouble for ignoring those rules.
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SPC David Hannaman
SPC David Hannaman
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Sort of like anti-trust laws...
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Capt Retired
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I hardly ever know the religious beliefs of those at my table unless they are close to me. By close I do not mean proximity. I will bow my head, pray or not, etc out of respect to the group. What meaning I give is up to me and what meaning the others give is up to them.

Why do we have to make it an issue?

Simple respect for each other should suffice.
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CPT Senior Instructor
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I really didn't think that was a thing. I can't say I know many soldiers that really talk about faith to be honest. I will say that I am Deist. I will respect all faiths. I don't have an issue with bowing my head. I see it as paying respect to my follow soldiers. I am sure if I asked for some special consideration they would abide by it too. It would be the same if you were of another faith, say Islam, and you asked for some silence while you prayed. Then your fellow soldiers said "I don't have to be quiet. I am not Muslim!" It is about being a decent person and respecting another. I bow my head. I don't talk to anyone. I don't think intercessory pray really does anything but I will still respect those that do. As the very least you can close your eyes and take a quick nap.
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SSG Program Control Manager
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Because there can be negative repercussions to being anything other than Christian in the military.
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1SG Senior Medical Nco
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Prayer involves more than simply bowing one's head. Prayer is between an individual and their god, or whatever their spiritual alignment might be. I don't have one, but that doesn't mean I have to show disrespect to others who do. I have no problem with lowering my eyes, or head and contemplating other things for the whole 20 seconds it takes for others to have their ghost chats.

Put the energy into your career, it will do more of you than fighting tradition.
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