Posted on Jul 3, 2016
Why do units insist that a SM wear the unit patch as the combat patch while deployed with that unit? I resist this.
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Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 51
Esprit de Corps. I have heard this one before. I found it wasn't a hill I was willing to die on. Oddly more common the closer one gets to the flagpole..
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SSG Don Maggart
There were many Dead Holding up the Flagpole for Francis Scott Key to See the Star Spangled Banner Yet Wave they were piled up at the Bottom of the Pole....
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SFC (Join to see)
Yup, saw that before. Command egos seeking uniformity on one of the uniform item that uniform items that is the discretion of the individual.
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SSG Don Maggart
Exactly @ SFC (Join to see) Conformity a leftover Dinosaur of the Napolenic Wars.....
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SFC (Join to see)
Conformity has its place within the military, but there are instances in the regulations that leave it up to the actual Soldier as to what they want to wear. Played that game a long time ago at a TRADOC post in the months between Panama and Desert Shield where I was told to remove my right shoulder sleeve patch because I was in a student status. It took a CSM to unscrew a few heads over that order.
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I was approached in Theater by a SGM from the 10th mountain division. He wanted to know why I as a SSG was not following the guidance put out, all were to wear the 10th patch. I let him know that I had 28 total months with the unit I was wearing. And lost 6 friends in that unit. As soon as the 10th CAB exceeded that I would continue wearing my patch. Granted I used more tact.
I know the reg so why are SGM making police where the reg is clear it is the SM choice
I know the reg so why are SGM making police where the reg is clear it is the SM choice
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MAJ Seth Goldstein
I’m not sure which part about what I said is, “sour grapes.” Perhaps you have not been forward deployed but if your first, second, and third priority is not mission you are not ready for the major leagues. The major issues with E-9’s is first they spend most of their career at the company level and when promoted to E-9 most think they are the HHD SGM/CSM and not the BN and BDE SGM/CSM. Even the Bliss SGM at the SGM academy admitted the rank is not necessary. Secondly, for the most part with the exception of combat arms most E-9’s excelled in garrison, school, and look like soldiers in the uniform. This with the exception of a MP BDE CSM I recently read about.
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SGM (Join to see)
MAJ Seth Goldstein - "Even the Bliss SGM at the SGM academy admitted the rank is not necessary." Can you provide a credible source of this info? The only source I can find other than your personal opinion and broad brushed assessment is the link below from Duffel Blog.
While I'll agree there some highly stupid policies (PT belts in theater amongst other equally senseless examples) on the books, you do realize who makes those policies right? Enlisted Soldiers of any rank do not make policy. Commanders make policy, and NCOs are responsible to ensure they are followed. We don't have to agree with the policy, just enforce the standards, and correct those that do not feel that they need to adhere to them.
http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/04/sergeant-major-academy/
While I'll agree there some highly stupid policies (PT belts in theater amongst other equally senseless examples) on the books, you do realize who makes those policies right? Enlisted Soldiers of any rank do not make policy. Commanders make policy, and NCOs are responsible to ensure they are followed. We don't have to agree with the policy, just enforce the standards, and correct those that do not feel that they need to adhere to them.
http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/04/sergeant-major-academy/

Sergeants Major Academy Spokesman Admits E-9s 'Pretty Much Worthless’
FORT BLISS, Texas — Sergeants Major across the Army have reacted with stunned outrage after candid comments from a spokesman for the Sergeants Major Academy were included in a recent story in the Army Times newspaper. Command Sgt. Maj. Rory Malloy, current commandant of the Sergeants Major Academy system of professional NCO education, admitted during […]
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MAJ Seth Goldstein
I could have sworn there was also an article in Military.com. I'm sure there are plenty of fine SGM in the Army, I just only have come across two or three of them. Before retiring, I was asked to write a LOM award for a retiring SGM who’s end of tour award for Desert Storm was an AAM. Another great example of a schoolhouse soldier. Yes, that was the highlight of his career. The unit before that I was in a GSU and the SGM was previously an 11B guy never quite grasped his role or the needs of the soldiers.
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SGM (Join to see)
MAJ Seth Goldstein So we don't further derail this thread about the merits of perception and bias of people, let's agree that this discussion has no place in the thread. If you'd like we can discuss this further using the RP message system.
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Don't forget that AR 670-1 is no longer the full story- it directs you to now the supplement DA Pam 670-1 to tell you how to wear the patch. Paragraph 21-17 specifically says soldiers authorized more than one have the option of choosing which to wear, or electing not to wear. On top of that, don't buy fully into the "local guidance can be more restrictive than the regs." The rule is the rule, and the role of local commanders policy is intended to implement the regs and fill in the gray areas. Here it says the soldiers can choose their own patch in black and white. I don't know what commander presumes to say he is going to take away your choice that is specifically authorized in the regs, but they don't have that power.
All that said, sometimes it's a matter of picking your battles...
All that said, sometimes it's a matter of picking your battles...
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LTC Robert McKenna
"local guidance can be more restrictive than the regs" or the more popular "you can add to but not take away from" are bureaucratic cop outs as neither is an end around to violate the intention of a regulation or policy.
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LTC (Join to see)
Exactly sir. It's unfortunate how that rumored "more restrictive" BS is so pervasive. Interesting that it mostly doesn't come from those who write the policies, but from those who don't understand and still try to enforce them. I'm sure some of it's part of the creeping culture of attempting to control every aspect of Soldiers' lives, where any modicum of free will is seen as disruptive to order and discipline. Sigh.
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SSG Don Maggart
Amen LTC (Join to see) about time they changed and codified the Reg's my Dad a 2 Year Korean Vet a 4 Tour Vietnam Vet 3 as LRRP's then Training ROTC Cadets at NMMI had many choices both "Legal" and Bootleg Patches....
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SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
The women’s uniforms were changing, what seemed like weekly, in the early 80’s. I kept up the changes by message and illustrations that I distributed to the post units through garrison. The 670-1 was being re-written and taking forever. It was finally finished.
I arrived in Germany form CONUS wearing class A and solid black boots to my knee. I had left port in NY in a blizzard, my plane had been delayed 6 hours. My receiving 1SGT questioned the boots. I showed him page and paragraph where they were authorized in the 670-1.
It is up to the NCO to know the regs to keep those above and below apprised of them. Teach, teach, teach. That is the job of the NCO. If it is a patch or a change in the reg, find the answer and make it known.
I arrived in Germany form CONUS wearing class A and solid black boots to my knee. I had left port in NY in a blizzard, my plane had been delayed 6 hours. My receiving 1SGT questioned the boots. I showed him page and paragraph where they were authorized in the 670-1.
It is up to the NCO to know the regs to keep those above and below apprised of them. Teach, teach, teach. That is the job of the NCO. If it is a patch or a change in the reg, find the answer and make it known.
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Come and get it, Sergeant Major. Be sure to tell me how "your way" trumps Army Regulations.
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - Seems like some of these attitudes and phrases get issued with the diamond or the star.
I like to think that while I am very conscious of being the example, that I can do that and still be me, not a characature of R. Lee Ermey.
I like to think that while I am very conscious of being the example, that I can do that and still be me, not a characature of R. Lee Ermey.
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SSG (Join to see)
I have a feeling that you are a common sense leadership style 1SG.. if there is such a thing as "common" sense anymore.
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MSG William Wold
Some I think are training for after retirement to be the mattress tag police, "Do not remove by penalty of law"..
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I resisted that too. I wore a Combat Patch that I earned from a LRSC (Long Range Surveillance Unit) that had less than 160 people that wore it. So that I wore because it was different.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
MSG William Wold - I had a Platoon Leader once that wore his state ribbons from when he was a National Guard simultaneous membership program cadet.
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MSG William Wold
SSG Roger Ayscue - I "lost" privilege of wearing 3 rows of ribbons going from National Guard to Army Reserves, which was actually good, I didn't have room to put them anyway being a rather short stature small chest and arms person, whereas all ribbons are all the same size, my biggest challenge at the end was getting enough already sewn together longevity stripes, the PX kept cutting the continuous roll into short pieces to lay flat in the drawer and I don't care how good a sewing you can do it's virtually impossible to just add another one to the sleeve. Having 11 of them, and short arms, and MSG, they were only two fingers width from hitting the rank. Had one captain tell me looks like you'll have to either retire soon, or get a reduction..
That's kind of the down side of the Mil-Tech program, I already had 7 years military, then get a job that requires the continued participation in the military program that is generally 20 years, and balance that at the same time work in a "civilian" capacity in something that requires 30 years employment to get retirement. The last 3 years was gruesomely hell, plus going thru a divorce of a 29 year marriage, having your ex burn all your uniforms and equipment you have at home in case your called up at home when you were escorted to the door with a restraining order for doing nothing wrong. Then the court awards her 50% of all retirements.. But that is another story..
That's kind of the down side of the Mil-Tech program, I already had 7 years military, then get a job that requires the continued participation in the military program that is generally 20 years, and balance that at the same time work in a "civilian" capacity in something that requires 30 years employment to get retirement. The last 3 years was gruesomely hell, plus going thru a divorce of a 29 year marriage, having your ex burn all your uniforms and equipment you have at home in case your called up at home when you were escorted to the door with a restraining order for doing nothing wrong. Then the court awards her 50% of all retirements.. But that is another story..
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MSG William Wold
SSG(P) D. Wright Downs - My dad flew into Vietnam in late 1958 as a Air Force crew chief delivering some advisors and equipment, just shortly before retiring. His "boss" said it would be good for promotion as they had just opened up E-8-9 which were created effective June 1, 1958, under a 1958 Amendment to the Career Compensation Act .. He was hoping to stay at the base he was stationed at (Otis AFB, MA) but he was #3, they promoted #1 and #2 on the base eligibility list, one to E-8 one to E-9. Well then found out his promotion to 8 would require him to transfer to Gunter or Maxwell in Alabama, and he just wasn't going to have his young family there in Montgomery that period of time, (I was 7, my sister was just born) so he retired with 23 years. If he would have taken it and stayed the two years required, along with the large raises the military got in those times, plus adding to longevity, it would have doubled his retirement. I remember him talking about it but never regretting the decision. My dad kept every single piece of paper they ever handed him. Quite a stack.. Unfortunately he passed on a couple years ago at 92, and sister purged all of it when she cleaned the home to sell. Such history thrown away...
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SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
MSG William Wold - He lived through an important time in our military history. Too bad your sister did not realize the importance of the paperwork—many of us seem to have people who throw things out for us. It would be good to writhe it for your family as a history for them to keep. We are looking for written records, that probably don’t exist, from our ancestors who fought in various wars. We know they were there and would like to know something about them. Your input would be nice for future generations.
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I irritated the MMB (and my Team Leader) in Iraq by not wearing the Med BDE patch that the MMB that we fell under wore instead wearing my unit patch. Team Leader said I had to wear the MMBs patch, and I responded with the regs...tactfully of course...she quieted down. The MMB CDR and CSM gave me dirty looks but deep down knew they couldn't say anything to me. During our TOA ceremony, I was one of two in my unit that WASN'T wearing the 44th MED BDE patch.
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Sgt Carlos Barrera
This is just so petty; you are a soldier plain and simple, that you belong to a certain unit is a given. But does that patch make you who you are? does it make you a better soldier?? Marines don't wear unit patches, why? because they know they are marines and don't need a patch to make them belong!!!!
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MSG (Join to see)
Sgt Carlos Barrera - So what that you didnt wear a patch. Whoopie good for you. Petty? If that is how you see it, then so be it. I saw it as the highers that be were being petty by trying to enforce something that the regulations stated otherwise. I followed the regs to the letter. If the highers didn't like it, then it sucked to be them as they couldnt say anything as I was within the regs.
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SSG (Join to see)
Some refuse to wear certain unit patches.. NOT, because of the unit.. but in protest of the leadership..or LACK of.. I was fortunate never to have had these petty.. "wear my patch" arguments, we had many different unit patches with guys as far back as Vietnam, The only time we all wore the same was in the Company photo and awards ceremony...
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I haven't had this issue while with a unit, but I did have this issue with an ROTC cadet. Transitioning from an NCO just back from a deployment to a cadet wasn't easy for me at first. It's hard to let go of the NCO mentality. ROTC cadets wear a school patch in place of an OSSI patch while in uniform. I had an MS4 correct me on it the first week of my first semester. We got into a disagreement over it. I said I wouldn't switch them out, it was my option. Short story, the Cadre supported me, but I got lectured that cadets don't threaten to rip another cadet's arm off and beat them with it if they touch a combat patch.
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Seems To be an Army issue. Marines don't have to worry about badges , patches other extraneous do dads. Name, rank, Marines is all that's needed. Back in my day no name. Unless things have changed of course. My signs AF attached to Army, he deployed wearing 10 Mountain patch, he's deployed now with 2/2 Stryker, for all intensive purposes he's now Army, except his SSGT rank.
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Sgt Dale Briggs
Make that Tech Sgt, my sons just got his line number , nice to be promoted on a deployment, almost two years ahead of time in service and time in grade.
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The Army Times had a few articles on this in 2008. I was there when the 1ID CAB was trying to force TF Odin personnel (reservists) to wear the 1ID patch even if they were authorized to wear another patch. In the end, General Hertling had to put out a policy letter stating that Soldiers had the choice. The Commander and CSM then proceeded to act like asses and went to the chow hall, both wearing patches from their former units and marching down each aisle with their right sleeve in front going "see, see! We're cool, too!"
I had been wearing the 1ID patch but after that display....nope.
But also remember that during a ceremony, they can direct what you wear...TOA ceremonies and returning home are great examples.
Oh, and we display Esprit de Corps by us all wearing our patch on the left shoulder....
I had been wearing the 1ID patch but after that display....nope.
But also remember that during a ceremony, they can direct what you wear...TOA ceremonies and returning home are great examples.
Oh, and we display Esprit de Corps by us all wearing our patch on the left shoulder....
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Personally I have never required any Soldier to wear a specific patch over another one, but have been in units that "highly suggested" we wear that unit patch if authorized. It is kind of like the 101st Airbirne Division "requiring" Soldiers to wear their Air Assault wings above the Airborne Wings, even though they both are the same class of badge. As others have said, I do believe it is for the esprit de corps and nothing else; show pride in the unit you are with.
I do wish people knew the regulations better though. I have copied and pasted an excerpt of AR 670-1 that pertains to this question about the SSI-FWTS.
(d) The Chief of Staff, Army must approve the authorization for wearing the SSI for FWTS.
(3) Unless otherwise approved by this regulation, Soldiers attached or under operational control (OPCON) to other services are not authorized to wear their patches as their SSI-FWTS without written approval from DCS, G-1 or a designated representative.
(4) Soldiers of all Army components (Active, ARNG, and USAR) who deploy during periods of service designated for wear of the SSI-FWTS are authorized to wear a SSI-FWTS. There are no time-in-theater requirements forauthorization to wear the SSI-FWTS. Soldiers may not earn more than one SSI-FWTS during the same deployment.(a) A deployed unit (company or higher) will wear its unit SSI as the SSI-FWTS, regardless of the headquarterselement deploying and the unit alignment or OPCON during the period of deployment.
(b) A deployed unit will not wear its assigned SSI as its SSI-FWTS when the SSI belongs to a major command, such as an ACOM/ASCC/DRU or State Area Command, or a non-deployable unit. In such cases, the unit will wear the SSI of the lowest echelon Army unit (company or higher) in the deployed chain of command as the SSI-FWTS. Whenthere is no intermediate unit (company or higher) in the deployed chain of command, these deployed Soldiers will wearthe SSI of the senior command in the theater as its SSI-FWTS.
I put that in here but can summarize in a few sentences. There was a comment about being able to choose from three different patches, that is incorrect, you are only authorized one per deployment. You cannot wear one from a different service and you must wear the patch of the unit you are assigned if your company or higher deploys.
I do wish people knew the regulations better though. I have copied and pasted an excerpt of AR 670-1 that pertains to this question about the SSI-FWTS.
(d) The Chief of Staff, Army must approve the authorization for wearing the SSI for FWTS.
(3) Unless otherwise approved by this regulation, Soldiers attached or under operational control (OPCON) to other services are not authorized to wear their patches as their SSI-FWTS without written approval from DCS, G-1 or a designated representative.
(4) Soldiers of all Army components (Active, ARNG, and USAR) who deploy during periods of service designated for wear of the SSI-FWTS are authorized to wear a SSI-FWTS. There are no time-in-theater requirements forauthorization to wear the SSI-FWTS. Soldiers may not earn more than one SSI-FWTS during the same deployment.(a) A deployed unit (company or higher) will wear its unit SSI as the SSI-FWTS, regardless of the headquarterselement deploying and the unit alignment or OPCON during the period of deployment.
(b) A deployed unit will not wear its assigned SSI as its SSI-FWTS when the SSI belongs to a major command, such as an ACOM/ASCC/DRU or State Area Command, or a non-deployable unit. In such cases, the unit will wear the SSI of the lowest echelon Army unit (company or higher) in the deployed chain of command as the SSI-FWTS. Whenthere is no intermediate unit (company or higher) in the deployed chain of command, these deployed Soldiers will wearthe SSI of the senior command in the theater as its SSI-FWTS.
I put that in here but can summarize in a few sentences. There was a comment about being able to choose from three different patches, that is incorrect, you are only authorized one per deployment. You cannot wear one from a different service and you must wear the patch of the unit you are assigned if your company or higher deploys.
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SGM Joel Cook
CSM David Hopkins, your AR 670-1 is reading different than mine dated 2015. See par 28-17 3d. Can you give me the paragraph on that excerpt you attached and the date on your reg? I was reading an article that references Appendix F of AR 670-1 for additional changes mine only has appendix B. Thank you.
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CSM David Hopkins
SGM Cook, I am using the April 2015 regulation as my reference, para 21-17 a. (1) - (4). The only Appendix F I could find was in the DA Pam 670-1. I was unable to find any chapter 28 in either manual. Hope this helps.
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LTC Paul Labrador
The only time I ever was required to wear a specific SSIFWTS was for a patch ceremony. They awarded us the 44th Med patch. After the ceremony, it came off and my 3ACR bug went back on.
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