Posted on Mar 24, 2016
Why do we tend to refer to our Grades instead of our Rank?
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CAPOC CSM Running visited my unit last Battle Assembly and among his points made was the fact that we are "Sergeants, Staff Sergeants, Sergeants First Class...not E's" He expounded this point with the observation that E-5, E-6..., is just what is on our LES to know how much we get paid.
His point was that NCO's need to take back our Rank and live up to the values of being Sergeants, not E's.
His point was that NCO's need to take back our Rank and live up to the values of being Sergeants, not E's.
Posted in these groups: 
Customs and Courtesies
NCOs
Customs and Courtesies NCOs
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 54
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The Marine Corps is big on addressing by your rank. We don't classify all sergeant ranks (E-5 and up) as just sergeant. We also don't address someone by their rate. Got in a bit of an argument when a Sgt 1st Class insisted on calling me a sergeant when I was a SSgt.
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SSG (Join to see)
Mr. Montague, According to Army Regulation (AR 600-20) Table 1-1 a Staff Sergeant should be addressed as Sergeant.
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SSG (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - All due respect Sergeant...any uncorrected error becomes a new standard. It's your duty to make on the spot corrections. That what a NCO is charged to do..... we enforce standards.
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SSgt Dan Montague
SSG (Join to see) - Thats fine. It's an Army reg. I was pointing out what Marines do. If you are referring to the SFC I had a disagreement with, there is much more to it.
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CSM Christopher St. Cyr
JMHO, it is an honor to be Noncommissioned Officer in any of our Nation's uniformed services. If one makes a sincere effort to address you respectfully as Sergeant, the receiver should be humble enough to accept the honor and move on. If however that NCO chooses to use a few minutes to educate their comrade in a different service about the traditions of theirs, they should do so in an equally respectful fashion.
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Primarily because the same rank has different names in other services. For example, I always got more attention when I identified myself on the phone as Capt Porter to a Navy person than I did with Army or Air Force personnel.
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MCPO Roger Collins
I will be one of the first to admit to confusion on the variety of ranks outside the Navy. In fact, the Navy only refers to rank when discussing commissioned officers. We use rate in place of rank for enlisteds. No one has ever been confused my two stars and a two star Admiral.
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SrA Matthew Knight
MCPO Roger Collins - Ah Navy ranks, for you they're great but for us they're a pain in the butt. I can say I would never confuse your starts and a two star but I will say I have saluted my fair share of Chiefs, and missed saluting my fair share of lieutenant commanders because I almost never know what's going on with Navy uniforms. I was under the impression we were supposed to salute shiny things but in certain uniforms you all have shiny things. Makes it tough sometimes.
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MCPO Roger Collins
SrA Matthew Knight - Easy, if you are enlisted, you salute ranks, and ignore rates.
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Because we are foolish and don't follow tradition and protocol.
If you are a Sergeant First Class and I am sending somebody to see you I will say, "Go see Sergeant First Class Squires". You should answer the phone the same way. I HATE hearing somebody say E-5/6 etc. Pisses me off to no end.
If you are a Sergeant First Class and I am sending somebody to see you I will say, "Go see Sergeant First Class Squires". You should answer the phone the same way. I HATE hearing somebody say E-5/6 etc. Pisses me off to no end.
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SGT (Join to see)
Soldiers I supervised over the past few years say things like "I'm just trying to get my E5." Drives me up a wall. Rank doesn't equal leadership and paygrade is just that, what you earn as a salary. Unfortunately, the military breeds an environment where pay grade equals rank which in turn breeds this discussion.
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Because sometimes in a joint environment, your rank may be called something different, or civilians you may work with won't know the significance of the name, but when you add a numerical to it, it becomes very clear. 6 is higher than 5. 9 is way higher than 6.
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1LT William Clardy
PFC (Join to see), unlike some folks, I still believe that the vast majority of NCOs and commissioned officers not only know that a Navy captain is the equivalent of a colonel, but also practice enough common sense to implement the intent of the policy -- and those who don't will find themselves quickly corrected by those who do.
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PFC (Join to see)
1LT William Clardy - perhaps, but why go through the trouble of having to "correct" someone when posting the pay grade instead of rank will do just fine? seems to me like the military already makes simple issues more complicated than they have to be.
I can only assume you never served as an enlisted person. I can say that cause you obviously have not had to deal with the majority of the ppl around you out ranking you. and while some like you to use common sense and initiative, others chew you out for NOT following directions to the letter even when their directions are idiotic.
I can only assume you never served as an enlisted person. I can say that cause you obviously have not had to deal with the majority of the ppl around you out ranking you. and while some like you to use common sense and initiative, others chew you out for NOT following directions to the letter even when their directions are idiotic.
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1LT William Clardy
Au contraire, PFC (Join to see). I spent 7 years in the enlisted ranks. If you don't like taking idiotic orders, my standard solution was always to get myself promoted so that I could be in charge of the idiots instead of vice versa.
If precision is all that matters, then why not just refer to everybody by their pay grade and SSAN? That way you also wouldn't have to worry about somebody not knowing which MAJ Smith you were talking about.
If precision is all that matters, then why not just refer to everybody by their pay grade and SSAN? That way you also wouldn't have to worry about somebody not knowing which MAJ Smith you were talking about.
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PFC (Join to see)
well your standard solution may not work since your solution is actually CREATING a problem.
these are the same ppl who put 22 year old college grads 2lt as supervisors to 31 year old SFC with 12 years experience and 4 tours. the kind of officer that may never have held a real job and may get soldiers killed because some think his "education" trumps experience
as to your question of why not refer every body as pay grades, there are levels of command also associated with rank. we have 1st sergeants commanding soldiers at e8 and we have master sergeants not necessarily commanding soldiers... also an E-8
same as spc and cpl or E-8s in the Marine corp as well as the other branches of service.
but I digress LT and get back on topic. Using paygrade is sometimes easier or simpler than writing out rank, like in the examples of Naval Captains vs the other services Colonel.
these are the same ppl who put 22 year old college grads 2lt as supervisors to 31 year old SFC with 12 years experience and 4 tours. the kind of officer that may never have held a real job and may get soldiers killed because some think his "education" trumps experience
as to your question of why not refer every body as pay grades, there are levels of command also associated with rank. we have 1st sergeants commanding soldiers at e8 and we have master sergeants not necessarily commanding soldiers... also an E-8
same as spc and cpl or E-8s in the Marine corp as well as the other branches of service.
but I digress LT and get back on topic. Using paygrade is sometimes easier or simpler than writing out rank, like in the examples of Naval Captains vs the other services Colonel.
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1SG (Join to see) Great question. As a Marine, a Staff Sergeant was a Staff Sergeant and a Gunnery Sergeant a Gunnery Sergeant, etc. As a Soldier a Sergeant could be a Sergeant, a Staff Sergeant, a Sergeant First Class, or a Master Sergeant. While I know and have long since accepted AR 600-9 and its direction about NCO and SNCO ranks, I wonder if we called each other by our "long title" if it would make a difference. Even today, when I enter a USAF installation if the Security Police Officer who checks my ID is a Staff Sergeant or a Technical Sergeant I call them by full rank. I like where the CPOC CSM was headed and agree we are NCOs and SNCOs not E- grades. I also agree with his sentiment, but have long known that there is a huge difference in responsibility, skill, knowledge, life experience, technical and tactical proficiency between a Sergeant and a Master Sergeant. The pride of being an NCO of living the Army values, of being the NCO creed, and of leading by example should be our goal as NCO leaders everyday. Thanks for a great question and for allowing a retiree to respond.
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Perhaps the rule that states Sergeants, Staff Sergeants, Sergeants First Class, and Master Sergeants will all be referred to as Sergeant. The Army devalued the rank when they did this.
You have people calling you on the phone and you answer Sergeant Harrison, not Sergeant First Class Harrison. Now the caller asks "What kind of Sergeant, E5, E6, E7?" Like wise the typical response would be E7.
Perhaps it's time to adopt the Marine Corps standard of fully stating the rank. Unfortunately the rule is in the book for the Army and until that is changed, this will continue to be an issue.
You have people calling you on the phone and you answer Sergeant Harrison, not Sergeant First Class Harrison. Now the caller asks "What kind of Sergeant, E5, E6, E7?" Like wise the typical response would be E7.
Perhaps it's time to adopt the Marine Corps standard of fully stating the rank. Unfortunately the rule is in the book for the Army and until that is changed, this will continue to be an issue.
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SGM (Join to see)
SFC Benjamin Harrison - I've been in the Army over 29 years combined, RA, AR, and AGR, and it wasn't until recently(2 yes ago) that I was made aware of the change you refer to. I have always referred to Staff Sergeants and above by their specific rank. Except in certain situations I may say Chief or Top to refer to a Chief Warrant Officer for the former or a 1SG for the later.
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SFC Benjamin Harrison
SGM (Join to see) - I've been in 20 combined years and was trained in BCT to call SGT-MSG Sergeant. I have never went to my Platoon Sergeant and said "Good afternoon Sergeant First Class", it's always been "Good afternoon Sergeant". Or "Yes Sergeant, No Sergeant, etc.". Other than prior service Marines, I have yet to hear anyone use the entire title when conversing.
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SGM (Join to see)
SFC Benjamin Harrison - Perhaps it's the units that you have been assigned to that may have influenced this. Let me ask you this; when conversing with one of your peers or superiors about another NCO, do you still just refer to them as Sergeant or do you say something to the effect of: "Well, I believe Staff Sergeant Brooks would make an excellent SHARP for our unit." ?
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1SG (Join to see)
I agree. When I answer the phone it's MSG Walsh. The Soldiers address me as MSG or Top, due to the position I hold. My emails all always address the ranks and not the grade. I agree with CSM and MSG.
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PO1 (Join to see)
How bout air force Master Sergeant being only e-7?? And e-8 in the army is Master Sergeant but air force is "Senior" Master Sergeant?? Over inflated nerd ego if you ask me.
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When I joined the army after my time in the Marine Corps, one of my hardest adjustments was calling everyone E-5 - E-7 sergeant. One of the first things the Corps drilled into us is you earned your rank. I felt disrespectful calling a sergeant first class a sgt. He earned it why not call him by his rank? Even after earning the rank myself and being called sarge for years it still gets to me not because I felt disrespected by my troops but because it's just another short cut. When you take to many short cuts you lose something and I feel like the army has lost alot of its pride.
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So many people get wrapped around the axel about labels. Effective communication is the key. If you say E5 instead of Sergeant, but everyone in the room knows what you mean, then you have effectively communicated. Those who want to point out the differences in philosophical meanings between the two when there is absolutely no confusion on the subject do so only to irritate others. Of course, there is the AR 600-20 that specifically outlines how to address each rank and says that you are not to refer to a Sergeant as an E5. When someone refers to me as a W4 instead or CW4 or Mr. I don't care. However, when they call me by my first name, that's when I get a little irritated.
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Someone spent serious money to make a challenge coin with "NCO'S" on it??? SMFH!!!
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