Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 255
The major problem is guys are getting promoted at a rapid pace some guys still wet behind the ears in the Army have not even deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan and they already Ssg
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Just like you said, it’s not only the jr. enlisted. Unfortunately it’s not new.
Back in the early 90’s, my company had a SSG. Once he got in his car (while still in BDU’s). He would remove his cover & put on a Malcom X hat.
When his superiors would try & correct him. He would play the race card, even on the Top who was Hispanic.
So nothing got resolved.
Back in the early 90’s, my company had a SSG. Once he got in his car (while still in BDU’s). He would remove his cover & put on a Malcom X hat.
When his superiors would try & correct him. He would play the race card, even on the Top who was Hispanic.
So nothing got resolved.
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It is adaptation to today's culture. Everyone is so easily offended and we don't want that. AR 350-6 is Trainee Leadership, and the trainee has many more rights under it than someone who has never been in TRADOC could ever understand. And the Privates are briefed on it from day one at the Reception Station. Some of it is good, some not. They cancelled end of course testing for Basic, give out a participation trophy patch in a "patching ceremony" because the Privates don't have combat patches and are jealous. What Division Commander was it that was going to forbid senior personnel from wearing combat patches because the Privates hadnt' earned one?
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I can not say for sure. Its stands to reason that the government has run over the military as a whole. They have to have better training and higher physical standards in some cases. Drill instructors are not able to do there job. Sreamong is not there job. Training is.
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The Army’s discipline started to slide in 2005 from what I observed personally. But so did the Marine Corps. I will never forget a bunch of marines at Fort Irwin (NTC) who decided to drink in the cantonment area and run their mouths like little kids. A SSG had to police up not just his joes, but the LT as well. It was very sad and pathetic to watch.
Generally speaking, discipline varies based on environment. Combat arms will always have more discipline than a medical unit for example, and for good reason. An E3 in a medical unit must be able to question a doctors (officer) orders and ask the why if needed. The doctor has to recognize a teaching moment vs. a PFC preventing a mistake. In combat arms, if you are told to take the hill, you take the damn hill. These behaviors affect overall discipline.
Generally speaking, discipline varies based on environment. Combat arms will always have more discipline than a medical unit for example, and for good reason. An E3 in a medical unit must be able to question a doctors (officer) orders and ask the why if needed. The doctor has to recognize a teaching moment vs. a PFC preventing a mistake. In combat arms, if you are told to take the hill, you take the damn hill. These behaviors affect overall discipline.
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC Jasen E. i don’t know why marine units train on Army posts. Maybe because we have more and better resources.
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SPC Jasen E.
SFC (Join to see) - I suppose it makes sense. We have to train to work together somewhere. I just honestly didn't know that there were any Marines at Irwin. It was a good time, though.
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It begins with recruitment, the size of the Corps has always lent to the availability of recruits, the Corps can afford to pick and choose from the nations available population. The mere size of the Army and recruiting challenges results in waiver after waiver from the available population. Those with prior service and RE codes that are unfaivorable, young adults with backgrounds who have files sealed, etc. when you shake the tree of the Few and the Proud the pool to refill the ranks is large, when you shake that tree from an Army of many the pool is reduced.
Once in service the culture of our citizens begins to take shape within the ranks, tats, hair styles, mommy issues, the why generation and simply the why not generation. Those who did not respect their teachers, and parents will not likely respect the authority of those they do not know. Once it is evident that they are not fitting in, the process begins. Unfortunately that leads to what else culture provides, young leaders who have slid up in an environment based in questions.
These young leaders who are ill equipped based on the own moral fiber and lack of true identity, fail to coach, council and mentor in a way that is substantive. Back to the tree, the Marine tree is a bush in the grand scheme, the Army’s in essence a forest.
This had been true for decades, I entiered service in 1980, culture had both positive and negative effects, even though discipline was at a peak, there were those who failed to make the grade and were sent home in short order. The forest has deep roots, the trees before the forest will always stand tall, the saplings who fall will be either better or lesser for the ware. Society is he root cause, reshaping men and women is more challenging as society has become much more of a complex machine.
I ramble but if you read into the text, you will find that it is as it was, it is simply bigger and more complex, the issue of societal norms, Family values, and Core beliefs. Is the top 1 percent the same as it was, and who exactly is competing for them, while offering what they lack.
Thank you for your service.
Once in service the culture of our citizens begins to take shape within the ranks, tats, hair styles, mommy issues, the why generation and simply the why not generation. Those who did not respect their teachers, and parents will not likely respect the authority of those they do not know. Once it is evident that they are not fitting in, the process begins. Unfortunately that leads to what else culture provides, young leaders who have slid up in an environment based in questions.
These young leaders who are ill equipped based on the own moral fiber and lack of true identity, fail to coach, council and mentor in a way that is substantive. Back to the tree, the Marine tree is a bush in the grand scheme, the Army’s in essence a forest.
This had been true for decades, I entiered service in 1980, culture had both positive and negative effects, even though discipline was at a peak, there were those who failed to make the grade and were sent home in short order. The forest has deep roots, the trees before the forest will always stand tall, the saplings who fall will be either better or lesser for the ware. Society is he root cause, reshaping men and women is more challenging as society has become much more of a complex machine.
I ramble but if you read into the text, you will find that it is as it was, it is simply bigger and more complex, the issue of societal norms, Family values, and Core beliefs. Is the top 1 percent the same as it was, and who exactly is competing for them, while offering what they lack.
Thank you for your service.
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The first question that comes to mind: from where did these low-rank recruits learn to be disrespectful? They had to see it occurring elsewhere & decided to emulate it. Meaning someone of higher
rank failed to enforce discipline. Oh oh......now the recruit has the green light to continue his path to eventual dishonorable discharge.
Now my next question: what favor is a soldier of higher rank doing to that recruit by failing to enforce discipline?
What I mean is: eventually that recruit will return to civilian life & there’s no company I know that’ll put up with undisciplined behavior reinforced while in the military.
So now we have an undisciplined vet with no job and probably an arrest record.
All because one individual of higher rank was too lazy to enforce discipline several years earlier. Perhaps that one moment of reinforcing discipline could have changed the life story of a former refusenik.
rank failed to enforce discipline. Oh oh......now the recruit has the green light to continue his path to eventual dishonorable discharge.
Now my next question: what favor is a soldier of higher rank doing to that recruit by failing to enforce discipline?
What I mean is: eventually that recruit will return to civilian life & there’s no company I know that’ll put up with undisciplined behavior reinforced while in the military.
So now we have an undisciplined vet with no job and probably an arrest record.
All because one individual of higher rank was too lazy to enforce discipline several years earlier. Perhaps that one moment of reinforcing discipline could have changed the life story of a former refusenik.
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Lots of great comments- I agree with 99%, but I’ll offer another thought.
Is some of this the cause of the protracted GWOT? I think the lack of professionalism in the Army at the end of Vietnam was pretty well documented.
Leaders churn and burn so fast and so many were simply biding time to get out, discipline was someone else’s problem. Add in what everyone else is saying, but I think a constantly deploying force will suffer a drop in professionalism over time.
Just a thought.
Is some of this the cause of the protracted GWOT? I think the lack of professionalism in the Army at the end of Vietnam was pretty well documented.
Leaders churn and burn so fast and so many were simply biding time to get out, discipline was someone else’s problem. Add in what everyone else is saying, but I think a constantly deploying force will suffer a drop in professionalism over time.
Just a thought.
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Let me add my 2 cent into this, its because a lot of high ranking people think they are more of a person than say the lower enlisted and they had enough. Remarks complete
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IMO because much of the NCO corps has lost its backbone. We spend way too much time coddling and "mentoring" and much less time enforcing standards. When I was a private my leaders asked me to do nothing. I was told what to do and how to do it. I get frustrated with an endless string of "why?" after giving simple, concise, and clear instructions. I once told a new private to go ask top the question of why. They returned and the private in the front leaning rest was told, "why...because I directed you to." I'm not going to answer why on the battlefield and someone's hesitation or less than full commitment may get someone or some people needlessly killed. I am sick of why.
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