Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Capt Michael Wilford
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Posted in these groups: Discipline1 DisciplineEnlisted logo EnlistedUcmj UCMJ
Edited 6 y ago
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SSG Curtis Vaughn
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Call it what it is, lack of discipline and respect growing up, thinking they are entitled. When these individuals enter service is the time to mold them teach them, stress card my butt. Things have changed so much, Officers aren't staying in their lane and letting NCOs do their job. NCOs letting Officers do there job, I come from a generation where NCOs lead the way. NCOs train your Soilders to do your job give them responsibility and hold them to a standard. You'd be surprised
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LT Michael Conquest
LT Michael Conquest
6 y
In the Navy we called it deck plate leadership. Sr. Enlisted are the ones who run our military and must be given the ability to do so without the handicaps they have to deal with. Their officers must support them and do whatever they can to help them do their jobs. Note: that does not mean micro-manage or do their jobs for them.
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PO3 Alex Bravo
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Isn't obvious? A generation expecting entitlements and it is not only the enlisted personnel, it all throughout the whole armed forces at almost all levels. The brass is allowing it and they are the biggest responsible (or irresponsible) for it.
I started in 1996 and left in 2001 wanting to come back and rejected due to a physical injury in 2003. Because I could not come back, I became a civilian chemist while most my buddies went from enlisted personnel to officers ranks.
My buddies are the embodiment of success through sheer intelligence and persistence. However, when I speak with about half of them (still serving), they act like children and do not know what is going on around the world. This is part of their job, to understand and act to protect our country. The top brass that allows for this immaturity must pay regardless of rank and position. Discipline starts at the top and unfortunately, it supposed to start with our commander in chief (not to be political but behavior critical). That is not happening and so, how do you expect to impart discipline when the mature and the military top brass act like entitled children?
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SGT Human Resources Specialist
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Yes, this is long but it goes a long way to be a little more insightful and consider the different aspects of why it is of what you see. Of course there is a broad range of multiple issues but I emphasize clearly on the well-being of soldiers.

It is the lack of commitment, trust, and competence of leaders who allow disrespect and indiscipline to run rampant. Although I would love to introduce the motion of political integration, instead I will focus on what truly matters.

Upon entering service we are indoctrinated about the values in leadership, as well as how it is implemented, but most of all our commitment to the welfare of soldiers. Units rely heavily on the individual efforts of troops, especially Non-Commissioned Officers and their subordinates upon mission accomplishment. New soldiers to their first unit are motivated and willing to perform but over time being overlooked for skill level expansion and overworked without recognition or much needed mentorship to excel can and will evolve soldiers to become less compliant or the common ‘shitbag’ status perceived we all love to share.

I’ve seen many soldiers who seemed perfect in fact, but due to leadership and the works of our system they get burnt or just exit service altogether realizing the propaganda of recruitment well overrated as well as their potential best utilized elsewhere. Those who have stayed in, either complain and do nothing or idle by on benefits along for the ride of early retirement, unless you have other reasons for staying in.

It is challenging to find good leaders who not only empower soldiers to better themselves but be reliable and trustworthy. Understandably many leaders lose competence over the focus of progression and with the army changing promotions and performance expectations this not only encourages this but also strays further from soldiering in order to meet desired standards. I could invest time to train soldiers but time for myself to involve civilian education, military schools, and performance upon duties & responsibilities, not to mention taking on additional tasks for broadening evaluation performance is literally drained. Don’t forget you’re mix of training requirements, mandatory monthly briefings, and the mission requirements leaving you blown away at the thought of anything more than counseling’s as a resolve. Although how many of you honestly keep up with those? Also for those who do more to make connections and various achievements, good for you.

Also important to note these qualities mean nothing when seeking key positions in order for better chances of guaranteed promotion and progression. A pulled record brief and interview will value the personality and the preferred background performance of the individual whether they fit the bill or not. So don’t stress the importance of being a good leader just whether or not you can fulfill the job requirements expected of you. Quite interesting but sometimes for the best.

I can’t entirely blame leaders for not being leaders through responsibilities and expectations but preventable deaths and consistent disappointment in the system to better the lives of soldiers has taken its toll. The lack of discipline reflects this with acknowledging there are different forms of respect and undisciplined behavior. There is always drama with soldiers over leaders and consistent childish behavior especially with social media but well deserved to how these leaders are leaders in the first place. I must say it is an embarrassment to see more junior soldiers competent in their MOS over non-commissioned officers including things leaders should already know again trumped by junior soldiers. Substandard. Do you not know the implications of that?

So we could look at generational changes, pathetic parenting in what kids are as of now, but lets be realistic and take a deep breath. What we have going on within upon the health verses wealth debate. But yes, it is much different to the Marines Corps of course and your perception of discipline far from what I could maybe imagine to be or out of this world. Personally I lead in a way soldiers can trust as well as confide in me at anytime and provide independence within their roles to strengthen confidence and competence.

It is annoying to see those junior soldiers who have acted like some of the responses below just knowing then I would have been knocked out on the spot but really because they proceed to run to IG or whatever program to hide behind for their actions. They have yet to meet the fear of god honestly.

Curiously, what do you do to enhance soldiers for success and the perceived expectation of discipline? Also for those undisciplined and disrespectful, what resolved it?
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SCPO Anthony Wingers
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Start in bootcamp. Return to sixties level. Do not let anyone out of boot without meeting strict standards of behavior and discipline. Actually punish wrong-doers with article 15. It that does not work move it up to spec ct martial. Assign hard labor for those found guilty. Make sure everyone else sees the example. Sweat in training or bleed in combat.
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SPC Team Leader
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Bring back hazing or at least real smoke sessions. Get rid of entitlement in the ranks. Having leadership that cares enough to discipline, but also to teach. I have had some amazing NCOs who have smoked the dog shit out of me and who commanded respect, but they’re the same ones I would run through a wall for. I’d follow them into combat any day, in any situation. They are the ones who also taught me how to be tactically and technically proficient. They built trust and set clear expectations. They took ownership of the team, squad, platoon, etc. To the point that it made me want to be better and take more ownership over what I could control to try and pull some burden off their back. The Army has hamstrung it’s good leaders and promoted to many unqualified leaders who could run well. When boards become about finding the intangibles instead of seeing who can regulations and creeds or pt scores pissing contests then they will begin to see a culture change again
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SSgt Max Gonzales
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From what I've seen, standards have been lowered,to accommodate our new troops. Can't understand why,the military would be willing to coddle them. We were a tight knit unit all the way through basic. after we got our assignment, were expected to carry ourselves according to military protocol. If not disciplinary action was taken.
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SPC Rob Lewis
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IMO, when the military started giving out participation awards and becoming a social club(gender issues, non-deployment, lowering of standards) vs. killing people and breaking things =. The military as a whole started down a path that it is having problems recovering from today.
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SPC John Decker
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I believe it has more to do with an easing of the punishments, at training level, for lack of respect infractions. I don't know if they still exist (though I know they once did) but I heard some stories about "time-out" cards being issued to basic trainees. I was in before they existed. That added to this "everything is offensive to somebody" mentality that seems to be permeating our culture is surely a big part of what you're seeing.
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CW3 Chief Of Police
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The military reflects the greater society if comes from. Young people today are not as disciplined as older veterans. They were raised to be selfish, not selfless. A generalization for sure but I believe it to be true. From what I've read, the Marines are not as disciplined now as they once were but I don't have your cross service experience.
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SSG Mark Burke
SSG Mark Burke
>1 y
Hear, Hear!!!
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LTC Psychological Operations Officer
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Edited 6 y ago
It appears the Marines are not quite the role model for discipline and respect these days either. Looks like there is a white papers worth of screw ups just at Camp LeJune. ;)

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2019/05/02/crackdown-at-lejeune-inside-the-2nd-marine-division-commanders-controversial-call-for-discipline/
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SPC Jasen E.
SPC Jasen E.
6 y
I read both the aticle you posted and the letter it referenced and am blown away by the push back. Nothing in the spirit of the letter issued by Furness is contrary to what should be followed every day by every branch of service. Those that got in a twist by the haircut comments, for example, leave me dismayed. They knew going into the service, be it Army, Marine Corps, or any branch, that they were going to have maintain certain grooming standards. Yes, killers can still kill with long hair. But that is not the nature of the service you joined. Those rules existed before anyone who serves today joined. You don't like it, don't join. It's that simple. The overall resounding success of the military in general exists because of the discipline, and not just discipline in some areas, but in every area of a person. Every branch needs to get back to that regimented lifestyle. Thank you for posting that article. It was eye opening.
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Capt Michael Wilford
Capt Michael Wilford
>1 y
Thank you, sir, for this eye opening article; you are correct, there are poor examples of discipline everywhere in the service these days. Would you say it is a generational issue that transcends the military and falls on society and the military catches the fallout?
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