Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

When i first joined the US Army being a Vietnam Era Veteran i had those combat harden veterans that if you didn't follow the regulations you wear punished. Didn't need the UCMJ. your squad leaders could give you extra training. I turned over many rocks so they wouldn't get moon burnt. Then those types started to ETS. And then regulations started to change, you couldn't do this or that. And privates started to learn that. The same time our things outside started to weakin up. Like when our teachers could discipline their students. Same in the Army. One little thing they would run to the IG.
I had been in for about 12, 13 years i made E-7. Only one E-7 in the company under me so i wasn't the Jr. One had 2 Master Sgt. And a total of 7, E-7s large maintenance company. We had a Change of Command. Our 1SG only had 11days left and he was out. The new COMMANDER said he needed a new 1SG,in a meeting he was holding for all the NCOs. And thats when i really got the concept of ROAD. for those that don't know what that means. Retired on active duty. I raised my hand and became the new 1SG of that unit. And had a CSM that told all of them that they better follow my instructions. It wasn't easy but when your lower enlisted sees things like that it's not good. Plus the other branches had a policy that the Army didn't once and enlisted made Sergeant. They should be transferred. To many still buddies. They can't make the change. Plus the officers coming in are taught. Do not trust your NCOs. Those are just some of the problems. We could sit here all day.

A SMA friend of mine told me once, discipline and respect is not the fault of the Army...The Army is an institution. The fault is solely of the lack of courage and pride of the new NCO's and Officers that believe they are in charge. Corrected them if they fuckup or become disrespectful,l counsel them and send their butt home. it only takes two counseling's to send someone home. it does not take an ART 15 to take rank away from an E2,E3, or E4. the Commander promoted them with a 4187 so the same form can reduce their ass. been there done that many times when I was a 1SG. once you get your point across people start acting right or go home.

1SG (R)
A SMA told me once, not to blame the Army for the lack of discipline or respect. The Army is an institution. The problem are the NCOs that lack the courage to correct or kick someone out if they don't make the cut

After my career I raised two sons that are currently serving. One is in the Army and after boot camp he came home and told me that he had never seen so much UN-checked disrespect in his life. He said the Army NCOs seem to not care at all when disrespected to their faces. I think it's a safe bet to assume that is the main problem. Zero discipline from day 1.

I would say it's because of the E-4 mafia!!! Dude they control everything, seriously, it would be like pissing off your waitress who can cough up a slimy greener and spit it in your food just before bringing it out to you!!! This is why no one messes with them!!! That and they did away with "corporal punishment!!!/:0)", or for not allowing old school punishments by their next in command!!!

I'm a bit old school and may be out of touch, but I'd bet you were not around any STRAC units. If you're writing a paper on military discipline I suggest you spend some time around the combat brigades. During my time and in my units insubordination meant a quick trip to the brig!

the younger generation have the problem,(in their defense,there has been a big mistake in their (upbringing))

They get feed this left-wing liberal BS education all though school life and they think they can bring it with them when they inter the military, and they are shocked to find out it doesn't work in the military, so now they go around pissed because they can't have it their way and the military way.

I agree whole heartedly. The military has standards in black and white that should be upheld. It’s easy to get back too but people are scared and don’t defend themselves withe policies, procedure and regulations.

This is the exact reason I retired. I would have my Soldiers do the job the Army trained them to do in my PLT. Had on several occasions been told NO. When I conducted counseling and remedial action, I would get into trouble with the 1SG for doing my job the Army trained and expected of me in my title. I love the Army and do not regret anything. They need to stop catering to the "I am here, give me my trophy" generation and crack down on these undisciplined brats.

As a brother "Gyrene" my observation of the Army today there appears to be more emphasis on the "Social Justice" equality of the our "liberal" civilian population. There appears to less family "cohesion" and less "religious" foundation in today's youth. In the past; most of our military had "Southern" roots with a religious foundation and a greater respect for authority. Since the "Sixties" the American youth has continued with the tendency to question and challenge authority figures. The Marine Corps has a longer period of time in "basic training or boot camp" which in turn instills greater respect for military discipline and authority.

As a chaplain, I am somewhat in a different situation. Most soldiers, regardless of religion or faith, usually treat the chaplain with the upmost of respect and military bearing. With that said, as a Battalion Chaplain, interacting with the various companies of my battalion, I have witnessed numerous occasions where lower enlisted, E1-E4 SPC, lacked military bearing with NCO's and even lower commissioned officer ranks. I have witnessed time and again where an E2 will come up to our 1SG to speak with him and never think to stand at parade rest. But what's interesting is I find that to be true of soldiers who have been out of the BCT/AIT environment for some time. On the other hand, I have found new soldiers who have just come to us from AIT to still be in that mindset, and will stand at Parade Rest with our NCO's or at attention with me until I put then at ease. And lastly, once an E4 (successfully) comes back from BLC, they seem to get their military bearing back. The two cents' worth from a "dirty boots chaplain" who spends a great deal of time with the Joe's...

The Army has a morale problem because it keeps losing counterinsurgency wars as noted by Army Lt. General Daniel P. Bolger in his 2014 book entitled Why We Lost: A General's inside account of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Luckily in the Cold War the Soviets nuked themselves at Chernobyl so the Army can claim that as a win even though they went up against an opponent who was monumentally stupid.

Ok, Having experience in 3 different military organizations I feel I can answer your question based on my humble opinion and experiences. I was a Marine from 80 to 86, then in the Army from 86 to 92. I went from being a 0341 to a 52D. It seemed that the command, (E-5 and above) were more of friend, listen to you, try to please you, give you chance after chance. I saw behavior in the Army that would have had heads on the platter if they were Marines. Again, not ALL of the Army was that way. The combat arms segment were much hard core, but, from my experience the non combat arms were more in the touchy feel good sense. I believe, in my humble opinion, from what I experienced was a “ familiarity breeds contempt “ atmosphere. I never went out with my NCOs drinking with them, nor my officers. There was also the female issue. In the Corp, not so much interaction with WMs as I was interacting with female soldiers more often. So, there seemed to be a softer side. Again, I was in a non combat arms atmosphere, so it was different. Hope that helps

BASH ME if you want but I see it as a failure in the early 90's when the big draw down happened and had to rely on other resources to Maintain a fighting force. JMTC

The answer is simple; the Army promotes bad behavior, those under those being promoted learn by example. Mix in the lazy DOD civilians that can’t be fired and it’s a mix of nasty soup.

Best experience of my life, other than 5 children, 8 grands, 3 great grands. Draft driven military between Korea and Viet Nam. Airborne Combat Engineers part of soon to leave 11th Airborne, 2 years 24th Infantry. Top cadre WW2 and Korea vets. First Sgt jumped into Normandy, did Bastogne, jumped in north Korea. First issue of Military Code of Conduct. 12 - 15 years since WW2 Many family, friends, community combat vets. Numerous Gold Stars in small home town. Active VFW till they all died off.

You just did NOT give no shit to any NCO. First Sarge let it be known it was "HIS" Company. If you disagreed, he'd discuss it with you behind the motor pool at 6:00. I would have followed him anywhere.

I've seen discipline falter in my own family and society. In some ways I agree but there has to be a limit. When was the last time "We the People" had to make a sacrifice for the good of us all? Less than 5% have had military experience. Bring back the draft ! Or something similar.

I think it's partly caused by too much political correctness as well as a general feeling nowadays of no one has the right to tell me what to do or say. I'd say that would comes with lax rules and policies that have been put into affect to cow-tow to groups who feel they deserve special treatment because of race, creed, and color. The day when you saw uniformity in the Armed Forces is gone and it's not just in the Army.

It's generational. I saw the same thing happening in the Navy during the 90s and the 00s. Nothing like getting your a$$ reamed in front of a 3rd Class by your Chief for directing that petty officer to lead by example.

Out could be due to the fact that each generation is degrading when it comes to certain values. Also could be an issue with recruitment standards. On college I learned about the labor pool, you can only hire what's available. Good luck with your paper.

Because the Army* appears to have a discipline issue at the highest officer ranks.
*Sadly, not limited to Army, as made clear by the former SecNav and current leakers.
DISCLAIMER: My youngest son is the first officer in the family since the Civil War, so I'm a bit biased.

Catering to the New generation of military is a big mistake.
Starting with basic and advanced training discipline and respect for rank need to be maintained. Leaders need to not be afraid to put their subordinates inline when someone breaks the rules or shows disrespect to their leadership.
I am going to put this issue on the shoulders of leadership. Stop treating your troops as equals. You are the leader so lead.

It's not the lower ranking service members who are the problem it's the lack of leadership.

It's a question of training. The training that the liberal P{residents like Bill Clinton instituted is causing all sorts of troubles. From discipline in the lower ranks to depression, PTSD and suicide in returning servicemen.
when my father went through basic in 1942, a Drill Instructor could beat the stuffing out of you. When I went through basic in 1981, the Drill Instructors couldn't lay a hand on you but could scream obscenities in your face and tap you with the leading edge of their hat (I have a permanent crease across my forehead, lol). Now they can't even yell at a raw recruit because it causes "stress". STRESS?!? I've also been hearing about something that's called "stress cards" being handed out to recruits in basic, but haven't gotten around to finding out if it's true or not. I hope not. We're doomed as it is, what with substandard training and a President who pulls us "out of harms way" because he doesn't want us getting hurt.

The problem is the general lack of character among young people these days. I was raised with the Judeo-Christian ethic in place. We respected teachers, cops, pastors, and soldiers. We knew our duty was to serve our country. Now, after two generations of lazy, undisciplined parents and socialist teachers, young people have no such ideals. Situational reality, me-first-and-always attitudes, and "America ain't so great" indoctrination are often the core principles of today's youth (up to age 35 or so). The solution is not simple. President Trump, despite his personal character flaws, is leading the way to a restoration of the values our Founding Fathers put in place. Diligence, rigid consistency in enforcement of standards, and a strategy of building pride in unit and nation are appropriate means to return discipline to the military.

It all starts at home. If these children didn't learn to discipline themselves with parental guidance, this is going to show rather rapidly. There are those who can adjust to military expectations and those who will not. They need to be culled a.s.a.p.

My son served as a medic with the Army. My second hand observation seemed to demonstrate a lack of jr NCO leadership. Specialists with a clear lack of leadership skill were prevalent.
My Son, contributed to the issue. He joined somewhat older than average, 20ish, and resented kids as leaders.
Post Deployment, time, and promotion improved the situation but the Army lost a good soldier after 1 term.

Millennials rule and there’s no discipline anymore in today’s army I’m old-school infantry guy and I still know guys that was in the service with that say today’s army is definitely not the army in so deal with it

When you have a LTC deciding whether or not their commander in chief is engaged in an inappropriate phone conversation with another worlds leader then you have a fucking problem. That is how Stalin ran Russia and his military.

NCO's need to start putting foot to asses. That's one thing I never tolerated, disrespect.

Well I was Air Force and Army used to be "really" rank conscious. I got out in 2008. I appreciate structure and I always appreciated being enlisted! NO BASHING, just saying I could talk to an officer easier. That said. I hear that there maybe a "pack mentality" with millennial's hope that is not the case. When I was in it was everyone for themselves.(sounds bad but good) I never thought to gather others and work against our leader or just someone of higher rank. I was busy keeping my shit together :)

I have been out of the army since 1994. I was in the navy from 1997-2000. So, I don't have recent direct contact with the military. But, it is my experience that young people are the same as they ever were. My generation which invented HIPPIES for GOD'S sakes HIPPIES! were the worst generation ever.

A cultural change from discipline to political correctness has eroded respect for military tradition in some branches. Marines will not tolerate such. That is why they can do more with less. Unquestioned authority engenders obedience and effective command.

I'm not sure if this is a "military" problem. I see it as a generational problem. People are growing up with the idea that they are always right and no one has the right to tell them otherwise. They have lost the concept of working for something. They expect it to be handed to them because they "deserve" it. This carries over into the military. When they join, they come with the attitude "just because you're a First doesn't give you the right to tell me what to do.". Society has to change first, then everything will follow. And yes, as you can probably tell from my response, I've been out a while (Oct '71).

It's because of civilian politicians constantly using the Army as their favorite place to do social experimentation. The Army, to its credit, was the first to racially integrate. I believe they are also the first to open most MOSs to females. After that, it seems that it seems like discipline degraded because you couldn't say certain things because it hurts someone's feelings or violated their civil rights. I remember having the race card thrown at me several times when I was just doing normal discipline without regard to a person's color. I remember when we were told we could not use certain cadence calls will marching troops if they had profanity or were sexist. Every cadence that I learned as a private fell into that category. When I became a Drill Sergeant we were told that the new policy required cadences that were gender-neutral, not sexist, not violent and not profane. No more "Yellow Bird" or "I saw an old lady" or "I wish all the ladies" Then we had a Brigade Commander that would get on the bus with the new recruits coming from the Reception station, just to catch us verbally abusing the new troops. We also couldn't rush them through chow like they did when I was a recruit. Some of the new requirements made a little sense, but most of it tied our hands on the discipline level and the troops knew it. Today's society has brought this into the Army. Kids that smart off at their parents and teachers and are not afraid of the consequences and come into the Army with the same attitude make it really hard to instill a respect for authority. They are really quick to yell I'm going to the IG because you hurt my feelings. It all goes to crap from there.

More senior enlisted and the vast majority of junior officers are from the same generation as the enlisted. Sure, in the case of the NCOs they been in for a while but, seeing as how they know and understand the nuances of the what and why for these new soldier’s are less likely to use disciplinary techniques that instill the military bearing, etiquette and discipline of old.

Sadly, this can only get worse before it can get better.

In 1985, the US Army in its infinite wisdom chose to eliminate Sp5 and Sp6 ranks, thereby thrusting thousands of people into positions of "rank" and "authority" that they were neither mentally capable of handling by natural ability nor mentally prepared for handling by military training. These were not bad people, they were skilled workers who were extremely capable of performing their MOS. I served in the mid to late 80's and early 90's and watching some these people, cry out, "I'm a sergeant, I work for a living..." only to follow up with "I don't work for a living, I get paid to supervise only." You would quickly lose respect for these types of half-wits. I firmly believed that everyone in the Army deserved every penny possible, but not everyone should have been a leader whether the driver was a commissioned officer or a non-commissioned officer (NCOs). Officers were rare and NCOs should have been a rarity in any unit. The Army had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. To make matters worse, Promotions points stayed at 999 for many MOSs, stagnant NCOs would take up a secondary MOSs in an effort to get their next rank. So many would come into our unit (tractor-trailer unit in central Germany) absolutely skilless, and put people in danger through acts of wrecklessness, but at least they could puff up their chest and say, "I'm a sergeant, I'm a leader of MEN..." as if that excused their incompetence. These types of things led to many discipline problems that have continued to this day.

IMHO, a large part of the overall discipline problem in society as well as the military today can be traced back to the decision to remove prayer from schools. Growing up in that era I was able to observe kids who did not attend regular church services have an awareness of personal accountability. That accountability has largely gone away as the result of Dr. Spock has been the loosening of discipline in both the home and schools. Between Dr. Spock and the loss of prayer in schools there was a loss of the moral compass, having a better understanding of right and wrong, and thus respect for others has lowered...especially those in authority positions. As I remember, a few years ago AF basic trainees were given some sort of "timeout" system that allowed them to avoid being yelled at and actually punished. The discipline problem in the military is due to the lack of discipline outside and now trying to instill a foreign concept into minds that don't want to accept it. My rant, sorry.

I apologize for the length of this and if it seems to jump around a lot. I haven't slept and I have class in a few hours.

I will say that this issue is not solely limited to the Army. After I got back from my deployment, almost all of my shop had turned over and it was almost completely new Marines. Before I got out I was made the platoon sergeant for my shop and I noticed a prevalent trend amongst the younger Marines. They were a lot faster to make accusations of hazing or that you are targeting them if you attempt to discipline them in any way, shape, or form. If they gave attitude and the next day for PT you ran a particularly rough session, it was "hazing", as was making them stay past 1700 for inventory. The issue that I had was that the SNCOS would go to the defense of the junior Marines, rather than backing the NCOs to enforce discipline. I don't know what happened while I was gone, but when I was a Junior Marine, I would have *NEVER* mouthed off to an NCO, they didn't do it to me so much as they did it to my Corporals.

This inconsistency and crumbling of the chain of command created even more problems, it got bad enough at one point that the company 1stSgt had to have a separate sitdown with the Junior Marines, the NCOs, and the SNCOs (SSgts and GySgt), and basically told the Juniors that not everything under the sun was hazing, and told the SNCOs to allow the NCOs to do their job and stop letting the Junior Marines jump the chain of command.

One thing that I found worked was that instead of any sort of traditional verbal adjustments, or extra work, I was having to rely on formal counselings more, and also a bit of extra scrutiny on field day. This allowed me to keep a signed paper trail on any misconduct, and it covered my ass if any accusations were made towards me. After the talk with the 1stSgt, I also made it a point to pull up the UCMJ and outline many of the articles that they could be charged with if their behavior did not change.

I also made it a point to never be in a counseling one on one with a female junior Marine, I always made it a point to grab one of the female Sergeants to act as a witness. I think in the 2 years that I was an NCO, I only had to raise my voice twice, so that they knew that If I was at that point, things were going to be very bad for them very fast.

It's a changing Corps and leadership needs to stop trying to be friends with the Juniors and start being leaders again.

Once standards were lowered to allow women in the military the standards could only go down