Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

There is little interaction in the Marine Corps between various ranks. The Army's discipline problem went up because of Sergeant Smith becoming a drinking buddy on weekends. Keeping yourself separated is a lonely prospect. You have to be approachable, and yet a mystery to your subordinates. They can't know if you have a wife, children, or anything else about your background. Officers are commissioned and the good ones stick to this to maintain good discipline among the ranks. There's an old saying I'm sure everyone here is familiar with-----Farmililarly breeds contempt---the words were never truer.

CPT, your talking apples, oranges and the truth. The Marines do a great job of instilling traditions and implanting the thought that every Marine is a capable infantrymen. The truth is it takes months of training and actual experience to be a good infantrymen, the warrior, the heart and soul of the military. Serve with the top line units in the Army and you will see something more important than discipline, you will see professional soldiers capable of doing their jobs on a moments notice and I would say that about any branch. Look at the Air Force, whenever I had to deal with them they were always so laid back, but could they get job done in a professional manner, hell yea. I would be more concerned about your units first time servers reenlistment rate, rather than worry about other services discipline issues, cause that will tell you a lot about how your people truly view your services discipline.

I definitely see it as multifactorial, sir. People love generalities, but I’m sure your white paper will inform you that the trend is not actually a trend in any one area. As I am sure you are aware, units strive to avoid public awareness of disciplinary issues by “handling it at the lowest level” and those reports rarely go up the chain. So I suspect the actual problem is much worse than we ever realize. However, that being said, my experience tells me the right early intervention in leadership makes most of the difference. As a drill sergeant I frequently encountered soldiers that arrived with a multitude of factors impacting their ability to train effectively. Some were overly motivated and didn’t know how to temper that while others were told they were garbage their entire lives and had zero self-confidence. We decry changing with the times, but we must meet these soldiers where they are as they come in and overcome those barriers to achieve the proper training outcomes. Once that is accomplished we up the ante until they meet standards. It’s an extremely difficult job and we often run BCT with half manpower further allowing for some to slip through the cracks. I can attest firmly to the fact that someone with low self esteem or low self confidence is easily led astray. We say break them down and build them up, but some of them show up broken. I am currently AGR for a state (switched to ANRG last year) as a recruiter. I can tell you anyone can snow us by being motivated for a few months. Just send a kid I’d have staked my hat on to 11B OSUT in February. He can home last week a quitter. Unfortunately what I’m seeing and hearing based on garbage packets I’d have never let go by as a Senior DS and the soldiers flat lack of knowledge as graduates is their DSs were junk. We need to start by holding the Drill Sergeant Academy accountable for the DSs they produce. Most I’ve worked with were actually the cream of the crop. However, I’ve still worked with many that should’ve never made the cut to go let alone graduated. They infect those young soldiers from the start. If the DSA was held accountable there would certainly be a higher standard of vetting performance. We also need to gauge actual leadership and training ability in that school instead of just memorizing modules and taking a test on trainee treatment standards. People think DS school is difficult, but it’s only challenging for weak NCOs. If they were truly the top 10% of their MOS, they’d all be bored like most I know. The curriculum is and has been a joke. I went in 2010 when it was a lot of written tests, nothing tactical, and a basic shooting course with combatives. Most of what I learned when I went was PRT because it was brand new. The academy should have higher standards all around and though I know we need Drills (ran several cycles solo myself), I could always do more with another competent senior than I could with a full staff of weak NCOs wearing funny hats. Improve the DS Corp (before they graduate the academy not after) and you fix the entire problem in one generation.

I think that this may be something that happens in a somewhat cyclical manner. Immediately after WW2 there were a number of NCO's and junior officers who recieved battlefield promotions based on their combat exploits and bravery rather than their potential for leadership. The result was supervisors who were good soldiers but not good leaders. There were many cases of inappropriate discipline and the use of authority by these individuals. The congress then passed laws withdrawing the authority of staff NCO's to discipline their troops. That resulted in an even greater breakdown of discipline at the opening of the Korean war.

It happened again at the end of the Vietnam war. Availability of drugs, civil disobedience, loss of respect from anti-military protesters and again a reduction in the authority of NCOs.

Recruits must be made to understand from their first minutes in boot camp that the military is not a democracy. Lawful orders will be obeyed and if they are not there will be consequences regardless of whether they come from a corporal, a lieutenant or a colonel. This must be backed up by the chain of command. All supervisors must be well trained and supervised by their superiors (not Monday morning quarterbacked) all the way up the chain.

Good luck.

Perhaps it's because of the younger generation of "snowflakes" available for recruitment these days. Our society in the whole has lost our way in training our youth to take over positions of responsibility and morality in these last two generations. The blame really lies mostly with bad parenting and lack of moral and family structure I think.

Because they took disciplinary actions away from the Drill Sergeants and that started taking in any E5 or E6 just to fill in gaps. No matter if they weren't worth the stripes they wore or not. Oh, let's not forget that there is only 20 % of E5s and E6s who has a take charge attitude and want to lead, the other 80% care about themselves, has no discipline and do not care about structure because they were trained or lack there of by stripe wearers who wasn't developed enough to lead a pack of paper towels .

People, I am steel pot, M14, Vietnam, RA, regular Army Veteran. I joined when I was 17 years old and I am proud to have served. It was drilled into me in my basic training! It showed when I walked, it showed when we marched. I once spoke to a Vietnam Marine Vet and I told him how well they showed their pride when they marched ad how sorry our current Army troops march in their basic training graduation. They look like they are going on a school Outing. He told me something which I will share with you all and I hope the General Staff will hear and listen. The Marines have Pride Drilled into them from basic on , Siemper Fidelis! These guys were so proud they would not let us, Army, help them when they got into trouble. Ha! But we always did, they are American who happen to be Marines. My drill Sergeant drilled into us the Pride of being a Solder and the Honor of defensing our nation. Even when being a Solder was looked down on. WE SERVE WITH PRIDE and HONOR, what happen to our leaders? All the General that retired and served the president are in Jail? Where is the honor the pride??? Where is the Leadership?? Yet they like to be called General...? It starts at the TOP. We lost Viet Nam because of a General. 58,208 guys can testify to that. We won in Kawai because of a General that had what is takes. may he rest in peace. Its going to take a General with honor and pride to correct whats happening and get us all back in step so when we see the Marines or Army march we can say they show they have pride in who they are and give honor to our country. Siemper Fidelis, it was an honor to have served in country with these men. I hope one day they will say the same about us.

A lot of what you are likely se is the result of more than one thing. Promotions that occurred to fast due to former War time. Second some due to lower ranks having seen more combat than their superiors. For example before I retired my Battalion had a MSG who never deployed. We also had Specialist E-4s who had seem multiple deployments. It was difficult for the E-4s to accept that MSG, who never deployed, telling them what they should do to prepare for possible Combat.

Because those lower enlisted ranks were former NCOs who got knocked down to E1? Lol sorry couldnt help but mention it.

The Marines do have this issue. In fact its not uncommon for a a person to enlist into the Army after being thrown out of the Marines and bringing those same discipline issue to the Army. Its not a generational issue, its the fact that laws and regulations have changed. When I was a private in 2004 my drill sergeant was kicked out of boot camp for recruit abuse and trust me the level of hazing that had to take place for that to happen in 2004... you had to be on the verge of killing someone to loose your drill sergeant patch - but he managed to loose it without killing anyone, just sending about a dozen to the hospital with broken bones. That's why they created new laws, to prevent this from taking place and allowing low ranking troops to collect tens of thousands of dollars over their lifetime for being injured on the job via hazing. So once the hazing was cracked down on, their wasn't really anything the higher ups could do to 'discipline' (aka abuse the living shit) out of the junior enlisted, leaving the higher ups unable to function because hazing a junior was their only method of communication. True problem soldiers do exist, but they are fewer of them then others would let on to believe. Nobody likes to talk about the undisciplined officers or the clinically obese SFC. The poor management of good soldiers by higher ups is far more widespread and enough to drive anyone insane.

When i first joined the US Army being a Vietnam Era Veteran i had those combat harden veterans that if you didn't follow the regulations you wear punished. Didn't need the UCMJ. your squad leaders could give you extra training. I turned over many rocks so they wouldn't get moon burnt. Then those types started to ETS. And then regulations started to change, you couldn't do this or that. And privates started to learn that. The same time our things outside started to weakin up. Like when our teachers could discipline their students. Same in the Army. One little thing they would run to the IG.
I had been in for about 12, 13 years i made E-7. Only one E-7 in the company under me so i wasn't the Jr. One had 2 Master Sgt. And a total of 7, E-7s large maintenance company. We had a Change of Command. Our 1SG only had 11days left and he was out. The new COMMANDER said he needed a new 1SG,in a meeting he was holding for all the NCOs. And thats when i really got the concept of ROAD. for those that don't know what that means. Retired on active duty. I raised my hand and became the new 1SG of that unit. And had a CSM that told all of them that they better follow my instructions. It wasn't easy but when your lower enlisted sees things like that it's not good. Plus the other branches had a policy that the Army didn't once and enlisted made Sergeant. They should be transferred. To many still buddies. They can't make the change. Plus the officers coming in are taught. Do not trust your NCOs. Those are just some of the problems. We could sit here all day.

A SMA friend of mine told me once, discipline and respect is not the fault of the Army...The Army is an institution. The fault is solely of the lack of courage and pride of the new NCO's and Officers that believe they are in charge. Corrected them if they fuckup or become disrespectful,l counsel them and send their butt home. it only takes two counseling's to send someone home. it does not take an ART 15 to take rank away from an E2,E3, or E4. the Commander promoted them with a 4187 so the same form can reduce their ass. been there done that many times when I was a 1SG. once you get your point across people start acting right or go home.

1SG (R)
A SMA told me once, not to blame the Army for the lack of discipline or respect. The Army is an institution. The problem are the NCOs that lack the courage to correct or kick someone out if they don't make the cut

After my career I raised two sons that are currently serving. One is in the Army and after boot camp he came home and told me that he had never seen so much UN-checked disrespect in his life. He said the Army NCOs seem to not care at all when disrespected to their faces. I think it's a safe bet to assume that is the main problem. Zero discipline from day 1.

I would say it's because of the E-4 mafia!!! Dude they control everything, seriously, it would be like pissing off your waitress who can cough up a slimy greener and spit it in your food just before bringing it out to you!!! This is why no one messes with them!!! That and they did away with "corporal punishment!!!/:0)", or for not allowing old school punishments by their next in command!!!

I'm a bit old school and may be out of touch, but I'd bet you were not around any STRAC units. If you're writing a paper on military discipline I suggest you spend some time around the combat brigades. During my time and in my units insubordination meant a quick trip to the brig!

the younger generation have the problem,(in their defense,there has been a big mistake in their (upbringing))

They get feed this left-wing liberal BS education all though school life and they think they can bring it with them when they inter the military, and they are shocked to find out it doesn't work in the military, so now they go around pissed because they can't have it their way and the military way.

I agree whole heartedly. The military has standards in black and white that should be upheld. It’s easy to get back too but people are scared and don’t defend themselves withe policies, procedure and regulations.

This is the exact reason I retired. I would have my Soldiers do the job the Army trained them to do in my PLT. Had on several occasions been told NO. When I conducted counseling and remedial action, I would get into trouble with the 1SG for doing my job the Army trained and expected of me in my title. I love the Army and do not regret anything. They need to stop catering to the "I am here, give me my trophy" generation and crack down on these undisciplined brats.