Posted on Jun 9, 2015
Why Does the Army Call NCOs "Sergeant" and Officers "Sir"?
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Throughout my Army career, I have been taught that we refer to NCOs as "Sergeant" (or, beginning with Master Sergeant, their full rank) but we refer to Officers as "Sir" or "Ma'am." However, recently I was challened by an E-9 in the Air Force (Chief Master Sergeant, I think) to find out more about this. Is this simply the unwritten rule, a part of Army customs and courtesies? And, if it is, where did this come from? Or is this actually written somewhere, in a regulation I have not found yet?
Note that at no point am I saying this is incorrect. I am just trying to get some actual facts on the tradition, so that, as an NCO, I know more about the facts behind the traditions/customs/courtesies.
Note that at no point am I saying this is incorrect. I am just trying to get some actual facts on the tradition, so that, as an NCO, I know more about the facts behind the traditions/customs/courtesies.
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 22
Because if you called an Army Officer, "Sergeant" it would confuse him for months!
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SGT William Howell
At some point in your career you will be find when you can ditch "Sir" for "L.T." or "Cap'n" and only use the formal for Field Grade or officers not in your chain. The most important thing to always know is that "Sarge" is never ok to use.
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SFC (Join to see), I don't know its origin, but it is regulation. AR 600-20, table 1-1 provides the titles of address (e.g., Sergeant First Class = Sergeant), and AR 600-25 provides the appropriate greetings (e.g., "Good morning, Ma'am."). *EDIT* In case you weren't aware, the title of address for Master Sergeant is "Sergeant", not "Master Sergeant."
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CW3 (Join to see)
Chief vs Sir. This one cracks me up too. The answer can also be found in AR 600-20. Thanks for sharing SGT (Join to see) ! This is a good piece of information for all of us. We need to preserve our traditions and stick to the AR as closely as possible.
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SFC (Join to see)
Sergeant , I earned that title and if you call me sir ill be quick to let you know " I work for a living, its Sergeant".
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Sgt Donald Chalfy
SFC (Join to see) - Yup. Call any Marine enlisted sir and prepare for a 2nd degree wind burn, resplendent with foreign food particles and spit, usually starting with "don't F*kn call me a F*kn officer ya F*kn boot," followed a lexicon of profanity that will melt anyone's ears in the vicinity, and of course, ending with "I work for a F*kn living".
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Edward Samsen
Sgt Donald Chalfy - You can expect a similar tirade of "salty" language from Chief Petty Officers ,SCPOs and MCPOs
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Close answers...read my book Sovereigns, Dynasties, and Nobility available on Amazon. As with many things in history, much depends on your chosen snapshot in time. By the time of the 11th Century, "Sire" was the term generally offered to most male nobles in Europe including serf-knights. The term eventually morphed into "sir" and was applied to the merchant class and gentry. People who model their beliefs on Hollywood notions thus link 'sir" as in Sir Lancelot; however, the correct term was "sire". By the 16th Century, military officers still tended to be from noble/upper class families and were customarily referred to as "Sir".
Similarly, "Ma'am" or "Madame" was a term originally applied to noble or royal ladies (Baroness and higher).
The position/rank/term of "Sergeant" also had different meanings in different times, from Sergeant Knights/at arms (Sergeant at arms) to Sergeant Major Generals....in such cases the "title" or "rank" was applied in cases when the term "sir" or "sire" did not apply, as in the case of lower knights and squires.
D
Similarly, "Ma'am" or "Madame" was a term originally applied to noble or royal ladies (Baroness and higher).
The position/rank/term of "Sergeant" also had different meanings in different times, from Sergeant Knights/at arms (Sergeant at arms) to Sergeant Major Generals....in such cases the "title" or "rank" was applied in cases when the term "sir" or "sire" did not apply, as in the case of lower knights and squires.
D
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM (Join to see), I was researching this last night and it was getting late, thanks for posting!
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SFC (Join to see)
Hey, it looks like it has the information I need... and as a history buff, I will definitely be looking into that. So, SGM, thank you very much for your information, and hopefully I'll be getting that book very shortly.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Sgt Richard Buckner - Right? I ain't even mad, though. That was smooth as fresh churned butter.
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Hello, first, yes, AF E-9 is Chief Master Sergeant. (I would recommend that you become familiar with all branch ranks as it is an invaluable piece of knowledge.) :)
It is the same in the AF, according to our "Little Brown Book", AFI 36-2618, the ranks of E-5 through E-8 can be called "Sergeant". E-9 will be addressed as "Chief" or "Chief Master Sergeant".
The AF tends to address everyone as "Sir" or "Ma'am" irrespective of rank. Coming from an Army background, I have mixed feelings on this. I like the respect of it up the chain and down, but I am a bigger fan of the Marines' addressing full rank.
It is the same in the AF, according to our "Little Brown Book", AFI 36-2618, the ranks of E-5 through E-8 can be called "Sergeant". E-9 will be addressed as "Chief" or "Chief Master Sergeant".
The AF tends to address everyone as "Sir" or "Ma'am" irrespective of rank. Coming from an Army background, I have mixed feelings on this. I like the respect of it up the chain and down, but I am a bigger fan of the Marines' addressing full rank.
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SFC (Join to see)
Chief, thank you for your reply. And yes, that's one reason I'm looking into it. In the Air Force, as you say, "Sir" or "Ma'am" is common. Yet in the Army it would be disrespectful for a Private to call me "Sir". And... I'd like to know why. The real reason, not the BS "I work for a living" quip. Officers have a different job, but work their butts off (or not, depending on the individual); being in manned aviation for a few years, I saw that constantly.
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CMSgt (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see)
Oh, I know! I was in the Army first. I recall the first time that an AF person called me "Ma'am". I was like "WTFF??" :)
Oh, I know! I was in the Army first. I recall the first time that an AF person called me "Ma'am". I was like "WTFF??" :)
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MSgt John McGowan
CMSgt, Ma' am your shoes are ready. Seriously I have always called a CMSgt by Chief. Never used just Serior and as a 1st Sgt was called either 1sr Sgt or Sgt. I will throw in a Ma'am or Sir to a enlisted rank but it was a sign of respect. As a Southern Gentleman I was raised saying Ma"am and Sir and still do it today. It's hard to call a officer Sir when you have lost your respect for him, but then most of the time I just say his rank. But never to a full Col.
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It's part of the Customs & Courtesies, and it is generally codified differently in each services' regulations, but it is NOT an "unwritten rule."
"Sir" is an honorific, historically denoting fealty (root word Sire), and its usage among the US military is a direct "inheritance" from the British military. The British commission system (historically) aligned with Nobility, and the simplest explanation is the carryover from one to the other. though like many things from military customs & courtesies, the exact origins are unclear.
As for why enlisted are referred to by rank instead, it's also a matter of strict courtesy, going back to the British (if not farther) systems. As we look farther back, the number of ranks trims to that of Private, Corporal, Sergeant, Sergeant Major (more of a billet).
"Sir" is an honorific, historically denoting fealty (root word Sire), and its usage among the US military is a direct "inheritance" from the British military. The British commission system (historically) aligned with Nobility, and the simplest explanation is the carryover from one to the other. though like many things from military customs & courtesies, the exact origins are unclear.
As for why enlisted are referred to by rank instead, it's also a matter of strict courtesy, going back to the British (if not farther) systems. As we look farther back, the number of ranks trims to that of Private, Corporal, Sergeant, Sergeant Major (more of a billet).
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LTC Paul Labrador
Further, the term "sergeant" is a French derivative of the Latin "servien," and was historically used by military religious orders (ie Templars & Hospitallers) as the title for Men-at-Arms brothers who were full members and carried authority, but not eligible to be Knights due to non-noble birth.
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SFC (Join to see)
SGT Kennedy, as for it not being "unwritten," well, I'm asking specifically about the Army. And so far as I've been able to find, it IS unwritten in the Army. If it is written in the USMC, could you let me know in what regulation? That could be useful to my research as well.
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I've never called a MSG/E-8 a 'Master Sergeant', they are still a 'Sergeant', unless it's a First Sergeant, CSM/SGM(Sergeant Major), Drill Sergeant or a Corporal. If you refer to them in third person 'Master Sergeant So-So wanted the motorpool..etc etc.." that might be okay.
Inspector General Friedrichvon Steuben standardized NCO duties and responsibilities in his Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States (printed in 1779).
Among other things this work (commonly called the Blue Book) set down the duties and responsibilities for corporals, sergeants, first sergeants, and sergeants major, which were the NCO ranks of the period. It also emphasized the importance of selecting quality enlisted men for NCO positions.
"Though not always recognized as such, servant leadership — putting the needs of others first and helping people develop and perform as highly as possible — is ingrained in Army culture and within the NCO Corps. In fact, the very word sergeant comes from the French word for servant "- Command Sgt. Maj. Rory Malloy
Historically, officers were prominent aristocrats or landowners who received a commission from the country’s ruler, giving them permission to raise and train military units. By contrast, the enlisted were “the common folk” the officers led into battle. This was once true even in the United States: Military units were raised for the Civil War by wealthy and prominent community members, who would obtain a commission to recruit and train the people in their home town.
Its late, this is all I could come up with at the moment.
Inspector General Friedrichvon Steuben standardized NCO duties and responsibilities in his Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States (printed in 1779).
Among other things this work (commonly called the Blue Book) set down the duties and responsibilities for corporals, sergeants, first sergeants, and sergeants major, which were the NCO ranks of the period. It also emphasized the importance of selecting quality enlisted men for NCO positions.
"Though not always recognized as such, servant leadership — putting the needs of others first and helping people develop and perform as highly as possible — is ingrained in Army culture and within the NCO Corps. In fact, the very word sergeant comes from the French word for servant "- Command Sgt. Maj. Rory Malloy
Historically, officers were prominent aristocrats or landowners who received a commission from the country’s ruler, giving them permission to raise and train military units. By contrast, the enlisted were “the common folk” the officers led into battle. This was once true even in the United States: Military units were raised for the Civil War by wealthy and prominent community members, who would obtain a commission to recruit and train the people in their home town.
Its late, this is all I could come up with at the moment.
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SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA
You hit it dead on.
There is a difference between the rank/title of someone versus the way they are addressed by that rank.
"Sergeant First Class Gomez can't hold a candle against me in ping-pong", as opposed to "Roger Sergeant Gomez, I wont play so rough next time"
or,
"Captain DeSantis left a piece of him (and his rotor blades) in Afghanistan" as opposed to "How was your flight, Sir?"
Present vs absent.
There is a difference between the rank/title of someone versus the way they are addressed by that rank.
"Sergeant First Class Gomez can't hold a candle against me in ping-pong", as opposed to "Roger Sergeant Gomez, I wont play so rough next time"
or,
"Captain DeSantis left a piece of him (and his rotor blades) in Afghanistan" as opposed to "How was your flight, Sir?"
Present vs absent.
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CSM David Heidke
I actually corrected a Specialist one day at my unit when he addressed a Drill Sergeant as Drill sergeant.
I asked the Soldier if he had graduated AIT, he said yes.
I said, then that Sergeant is just a Sergeant to you, he's not your Drill Sergeant.
The Drill didn't have a problem with it.
I asked the Soldier if he had graduated AIT, he said yes.
I said, then that Sergeant is just a Sergeant to you, he's not your Drill Sergeant.
The Drill didn't have a problem with it.
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SGT William Howell
I always address Master Sergeants as such. They earned it. You will not find the term "Chief" in the regs for Warrants, but we do that.
As far as Drill Sgts. They still scare the heck out of me. I call them "Drill Sergeant" and usually go ahead and put myself in the front leaning rest when one is within 100 meters of me.
As far as Drill Sgts. They still scare the heck out of me. I call them "Drill Sergeant" and usually go ahead and put myself in the front leaning rest when one is within 100 meters of me.
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SSG (Join to see)
CSM David Heidke, yes that true about Drill Sgts, I have addressed them as 'Sergeant' and no on-the-spot correction was necessary.
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I think that is more to it than calling an officer sir or ma'am. Here you are calling a 21 year old young man or lady sir or ma'am who is wet behind the hears and are void of experience but possesses a four year college degree. Perhaps you are more educated than him or her; they are commissioned officers and you are enlisted. Tradition along with discipline and good order dictates we call them sir or ma'am. I sometimes wonder why some enlisted speak to officers like they are a second class citizen. It's like they are afraid the officer is going to crack a whip so to speak. Some enlisted act timid to officers which I am totally absent of that behavior. I have actually met several officers who speak and treat enlisted like regular colleagues. It's officers like those who I prefer to work with and for.
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If Navy Corpsman served with the Army it would have made my life easier. Lol
Referring to a Staff Sergeant, Gunnery Sergeant, First Sergeant, Master Sergeant, Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant as just Sergeant would more than likely would have led to my early demise. Lol
Referring to a Staff Sergeant, Gunnery Sergeant, First Sergeant, Master Sergeant, Sergeant Major/Master Gunnery Sergeant as just Sergeant would more than likely would have led to my early demise. Lol
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SGT (Join to see)
PO3 Fries, if you ever plan to call an Army First Sergeant just "Sergeant", let me know in advance so I can grab my popcorn and watch the fireworks, LOL.
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1LT William Clardy
That was one word which always set First Sergeant Chisolm into a spin, SPSG Ryan R.
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SGT (Join to see) I applaud you as well for wanting to uphold the standard and that will be great practice for when you become one of us. That being said regulations are there as a baseline, but any unit can add to but never take away from any of them at the commanders discretion. Some of the inherited customs and courtesies are just that. For me, E8 and up will get their full rank in a greeting except for CSM's where it is always "Sergeant Major" (as I have been told). On most occasions in garrison I am always called "Sergeant", but in most line units I always get "Staff Sergeant", which to be honest isn't necessary to me at all, but the level of respect that shows is nice.
Far to often we greet and answer people with little to no thought of the person instead we focus on the question...I am guilty of this as well. Complacency kills!! Ultimately neither way is wrong, but like I said it could be command driven or a preference from that NCO.
When Speaking to an Officer it's always "Sir" or "Ma'am" unless you are speaking about them to someone else, but then if they are an LT it's "Lieutenant" with no number attached to it or "Colonel" for both O5's and O6's in some cases. Generals can often be the same way, but again its all up to that specific command.
Now what we call ourselves in our own little groups of people that we work with or see often is a completely different animal. There are a lot of First Names and Nicknames thrown around, but that depends on those individuals and the level of comfort that you have with each other.
Hope this helps and keep pushing to be the example that you want your soldiers to look up to and emulate!! Best of luck to you!!
Far to often we greet and answer people with little to no thought of the person instead we focus on the question...I am guilty of this as well. Complacency kills!! Ultimately neither way is wrong, but like I said it could be command driven or a preference from that NCO.
When Speaking to an Officer it's always "Sir" or "Ma'am" unless you are speaking about them to someone else, but then if they are an LT it's "Lieutenant" with no number attached to it or "Colonel" for both O5's and O6's in some cases. Generals can often be the same way, but again its all up to that specific command.
Now what we call ourselves in our own little groups of people that we work with or see often is a completely different animal. There are a lot of First Names and Nicknames thrown around, but that depends on those individuals and the level of comfort that you have with each other.
Hope this helps and keep pushing to be the example that you want your soldiers to look up to and emulate!! Best of luck to you!!
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Navy regulations cover the same thing.
For example, E-4 through E-6 can be addressed by "Petty Officer" or by a combination of their rank and rate. Example. I was an Information Systems Technician (abbreviated as IT), First Class Petty Officer, abbreviated as PO1. I would go by either Petty Officer Miller or IT1 Miller. Same for Petty Officer Second and Third Classes, PO2 and PO3.
For the Senior Petty Officer ranks, E-7 through E-9, pretty much the same thing except for the "Petty Officer" part. Do NOT call an E-7 & up Petty Officer. Call them Chief (E7; CPO), Senior Chief (E8; SCPO) or Master Chief (E9; MCPO). You can also throw in job title: ITC, ITCS, ITCM. For whatever reason when combining rank with job title at E8 and E9 levels, the letters for rank are transposed. So CS instead of SC for Senior Chief and CM instead of MC for Master Chief.
All Officers can properly be addressed as Sir/Ma'am. Regulations also state that a junior officer can be addressed as "Mister" or "Miss." So Ensign Jones can be called Mr./Ms. Jones.
More senior officers (I believe O-3 and above) can also be called by their rank (though it is also acceptable but unwritten to call all officers by their rank). Example: "Good morning Lieutenant Commander Jones."
I've also noticed during my work as a contractor for the Air National Guard that a person higher in rank than you, enlisted and officer, be addressed as sir or Ma'am. So an E-3 calling an E-7 "Sir." I do NOT know, nor do I particularly care to know, if this is a written regulation or an unofficial practice.
For example, E-4 through E-6 can be addressed by "Petty Officer" or by a combination of their rank and rate. Example. I was an Information Systems Technician (abbreviated as IT), First Class Petty Officer, abbreviated as PO1. I would go by either Petty Officer Miller or IT1 Miller. Same for Petty Officer Second and Third Classes, PO2 and PO3.
For the Senior Petty Officer ranks, E-7 through E-9, pretty much the same thing except for the "Petty Officer" part. Do NOT call an E-7 & up Petty Officer. Call them Chief (E7; CPO), Senior Chief (E8; SCPO) or Master Chief (E9; MCPO). You can also throw in job title: ITC, ITCS, ITCM. For whatever reason when combining rank with job title at E8 and E9 levels, the letters for rank are transposed. So CS instead of SC for Senior Chief and CM instead of MC for Master Chief.
All Officers can properly be addressed as Sir/Ma'am. Regulations also state that a junior officer can be addressed as "Mister" or "Miss." So Ensign Jones can be called Mr./Ms. Jones.
More senior officers (I believe O-3 and above) can also be called by their rank (though it is also acceptable but unwritten to call all officers by their rank). Example: "Good morning Lieutenant Commander Jones."
I've also noticed during my work as a contractor for the Air National Guard that a person higher in rank than you, enlisted and officer, be addressed as sir or Ma'am. So an E-3 calling an E-7 "Sir." I do NOT know, nor do I particularly care to know, if this is a written regulation or an unofficial practice.
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LTC Paul Labrador
Interestingly the term "Petty" was based on the French "Petite" which was the word for small or minor. So a Petite Officer in French meant a minor or sub-offcier......essentially what an NCO is.
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PO1 John Miller
LTC Paul Labrador, I remember reading that in Naval history. The running joke in the Navy is that petty also means small and insignificant, or how some senior NCO's and Officers (not all, this isn't a slam against more senior leaders) view Petty Officers.
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