Posted on May 28, 2015
SSgt Security Forces
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Carbine backwards mag
I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited 9 y ago
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MSG Intermediate Care Technician
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The Army doesn't always teach that you are a rifleman first. Yes, we qual every year (as long as ammo is avail), but not everyone in the Army knows how to handle a weapon. Your picture reminds me of a time when I once witnessed (and I still don't know how she did it) a LTC Dietician somehow managed to put a magazine in an M-16 backwards. Not upside down, but backwards. After about 30 mins of tugging and shimmying, I finally got it out. She had it in there real snug.
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LTC Bink Romanick
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A militarization course will train the troops how to get out a swarm of bumblebees. You don't want expert middlemen, you want suppressive fire.. until the Cavalry gets there.

If they were serious about defended you'd have machine guns.
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LTC Bink Romanick
LTC Bink Romanick
9 y
Damned auto spell check. sorry
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SSgt Ncoic, Admin And Dts
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I agree, I haven't had to zero a weapon in sometime but when I did with my personal weapon it wasn't too bad. If you think some of the comm guys were bad you should have seen some of the Intel guys I was in augmentee training. It was like they were completely scared to handle the M9 and the M4/M16. It was kind of scary to think that one day these troops might be in a position where they could have to return fire to save themselves or have our backs....
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MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
9 y
Agreed. Most of the Intel folks I served with hadn't handled a weapon since Basic Training. Even then, most of them had the .22 conversion rifles. Big difference in how a .223/5.56 round acts over a .22! Most of my NASIC coworkers looked at me like I had a third eye every time I mentioned maintaining weapons proficiency given the frequent deployments.
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MSgt J D McKee
MSgt J D McKee
7 y
Whomever sold the USAF on that .22 conversion shit betrayed his service. I was in Security Police with a secondary AFSC in CATM when that happened. The guy who put it in on the suggestion program probably made a shit-load of money, but he betrayed his service.
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MSgt 1 C6 X1 Cdc Writer
MSgt (Join to see)
7 y
We had .22 units? Ouch. Glad I never got those in training. Definite difference in sound/feel between the two.
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CPT Assistant Operations Officer (S3)
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This goes back to another discussion here. The AF are not shooters, generally. They do have some shooters in them nothing on the scale of the Army and MC. It would just be a waste. In most cases there are Army and MC at the bases where AF are. A lot of their deployments aren't even to combat areas. I would recommend that all deploying Airmen going to an active war zone should be trained with an M4/M16. But if they are going Kuwait or UAE I wouldn't waste the resources.
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TSgt David L.
TSgt David L.
9 y
I see. I retired in 09 so I lost track of what and how things were done. I know it made sense back in the day so it has to be valid in some way today.
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MSgt J D McKee
MSgt J D McKee
7 y
Not 'wasting the resources" can pretty soon lead to wasting lives.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
1stSgt Nelson Kerr
7 y
MSgt (Join to see) - Our culture is to put weapons an targets, Bif F'n warheads very precisely on Targets, Playing infantry trainee makes the main mission harder to do. We also deliver "beans and bacon" as required and that takes man-hours that we already are extremely short of.
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LtCol Bruce Janis
LtCol Bruce Janis
3 y
A short training period is never a waste when it can save lives. Remember all the problems in Germany with the Badder-Meinhof Gang. We are not real popular in many places of the world, and our bases stand our like a clown’s nose. Youeould deprive your troops a week’s training, just because it would be a misuse of “resources”?
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TSgt Tsgt Tommy Castillo
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The Airman should be able to be called up and defend the base or anything else that needs protecting. Period
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TSgt Ed Turner
TSgt Ed Turner
>1 y
Bingo. Airmen aren't expected to be Rambos. But any combat organization should at least be able to hold the fort until the cavalry arrives.
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TSgt Tsgt Tommy Castillo
TSgt Tsgt Tommy Castillo
>1 y
All Airman should be qualified because they might have to backfill untill a combat unit arrives.
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Cpl Armando Mireles
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Every service should include basic rifle/hand gun training and qualifications.
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SSgt Boyd Welch
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As far as the base getting overrun scenario, with one armory on base (USAF) and no weapons prior issue except to SP's, you couldn't distribute the weapons fast enough to prevent total annihilation of the base. "Who's got the keys? Where are the freakin' keys???". So I see weapons qualified as a moot point unless weapons issue is standard. Even the Ft. Hood tragedy shows that administrative control of weapons hinders an effective timely response.
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TSgt James Carson
TSgt James Carson
7 y
You are so right. The Air Force makes you fill out forms and only one person usually can go into the arms room safe to issue a weapon. Besides. Most airmen are SNOWFLAKES these days. just have then do their assigned jobs. The security forces are supposed to defend the air base anyway. I just hope they are NOW better at it than during Vietnam.
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LCDR Arthur Whittum
LCDR Arthur Whittum
>1 y
Coast Guard had a LORAN-C System Area Monitor site just outside RTAFB Udorn "on the old dump road". We used to leave the sleeping quarters on base and drive out the back gate there on the way to our site. We went right by the USAF Armory where all their weapons were carefully locked up. We got to our site and gave the grey metal storage locker, labeled "Stationery supplies" a friendly "pat". It had our M-16s there until they were changed out to send the to SVN. But we still had M1s - they work too.
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SrA Fred Smith
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I was an Air Force marksmanship instructor from June 1965 to November 1967, voluntarily cross trained from IBM Data Processing. I was involved in the introduction of the M-16 at Dover AFB in 1965. I realized Air Force was not meant to be a ground combat force, but I felt that all personnel should be familiar enough with basic defensive weapons to defend their base and keep each other alive. Viet Nam was ramping up, and you never knew if it would be your turn to go to a war zone. I was amazed that I would have personnel come to the range who had 10, 15, even 20+ years in service and had not handled a firearm since basic training, including a base commander and senior NCOs. APs were supposed to be qualified with a .38 revolver, M-16, and riot shotgun every six months. All flight crews were supposed to be qualified with a .38 revolver yearly. The quality of some ranges I worked on was one step away from non existent. On base at Dover was a 25 yard conversion of an old fighter plane zeroing pit for pistol shooting. For M-16 we had to travel to Ft Miles near Rehobeth Beach to use an old Army pit range. At Kadena Okinawa we had to drive up island to Onna Point, to a 25 yard corral sandpit backstop with 2x3 framing that held the targets. I'm glad to see that Air Force seems to be more serious about defensive firearms training and better range facilities.
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Sgt Albert Castro
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Many of the other services poke fun at the USAF for being soft. If nothing else the Air Force should give weapons proficiency training to all troops deploying to any hostile theater. What will Air Force personnel do if militants get "inside the wire?" Fighting to survive is key in theater.
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LCDR Arthur Whittum
LCDR Arthur Whittum
4 y
I'll have to check my memory banks, but I remember finding four (at least) Airmen on The Wall that were on a mountaintop in Laos (LS85?). They fought until they ran out of ammo and were then overrun. The Intel guys would remember.
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Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D.
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I grew up with weapons, so I qualified as expert with the M-16 AND 38.

During Vietnam there were times during the Tet Offensive when Air Force bases were attacked and it was all hands on board. I also have known some surviving Air Force Helicopter gunners whom are still appreciated by Army and Marine who were in combat and were happy when their helicopters arrived to withdraw ground troops.

I'm grateful for the skill sets of all our military. For example, some of the best mechanics in the world work on our aircraft, ships, etc. And, I appreciated those who provided security for these men (and today women). Could go on - but there is no need to do so.

I also spent 3 years attached to Army. I trained military officers from all of the military services.

In my final assignment, I became very especially appreciative of the Marines who provided security for us in Belgium. To take on that commitment, they couldn't be married and were prepared to sacrifice themselves for us.
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SSgt Security Forces
SSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
great comment.... and I miss the ol .38
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