Posted on May 28, 2015
SSgt Security Forces
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Carbine backwards mag
I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited 9 y ago
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MSgt Aircraft Armament Systems
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Sorry, to many CBTs no time for shooting...
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TSgt Special Operations Forces/Personnel Recover (SOF/PR) Integrated Instruments and Flight Controls Systems
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7 y
You forgot to put 'pointless' in front of CBTs... soul sucking and or waste of time would also be acceptable
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Maj Robert Larkowski
Maj Robert Larkowski
>1 y
Sounds about right!
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CMSgt Senior Enlisted Leader
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The Air Force and its raison d'être is "Air Superiority". I am sure I have heard that somewhere... Lol...Aside from AFSC exception, we are not ground troops by historical design.

Now having said that, I am COMPLETELY on board to be fully qualified and capable to handle weaponry. It used to be annual requirement and has somehow fallen to the wayside. When needed, troops still get the "proper" training, but I think it is a skill set that needs to be kept current.

Coming from the Army, I know first-hand that there are fewer things in the world more fun than range time.... Cleaning weapons afterward, not so much. :)
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TSgt Chip Dollason
TSgt Chip Dollason
9 y
Maj Arthur Shields - While I agree with part of what you said Maj, clearly you have never spent time on the range and just observed some of these idiots pointing guns at other people, shooting the ground or the ceiling, or watching them touch their weapons while other people are down range checking their targets. One training session is no where near enough for some of the people I have seen on the range. Af far as the cost.....According to 2226 (Combat Arms Bible) 100 rds per person x the 4000 extra personnel on base that were not deployable 400,000 rds. Then factor in personnel to train those 4000 people, the cost of range maintenance, replacement parts, cleaning supplies, shooting supplies, the cost of having 4000 people away from their jobs and it adds up. So the bottom line is follow the money.
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CPT Ray Doeksen
CPT Ray Doeksen
>1 y
I dreamed of rigging up a dishwasher to run CLP ... there has to be a better way than q-tips and bore patches.
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Lt Col Robert Canfield
Lt Col Robert Canfield
>1 y
That looks like a sign that was frequently posted at the front gate of SAC Bases back in the 60s and 70s. There was corollary to the phrase on those signs:
"Peace is Our Profession"...."War is just a Hobby".

All jokes aside, when I deployed to Saudi during Desert Swarm, we had to re-qualify on the M16, which I thought was a good idea. Knowing that the base we were going to was surrounded by a city/urban area (Riyadh), and that some muslim extremist could pop up from just about anywhere, I still felt ill-prepared. What really frosted me was that, upon arrival, we had to check-in our weapons and ammo to a make-shift armory at Riyadh AB. The armory was about a 10-15 min drive from where we actually worked. I was wondering, what if we had some kind of terrorist attack, should we just say: "Excuse me while I drive across town to fetch my M16" ??? It was not well thought out; but most conflicts are a "come as you are affair". I would rather come armed than not. Good grief if a military recruiting station can be attacked right here in the US, doesn't it make sense to train and equip those who go forward to a known hostile area with even the most basic weapons and skills? I get it that cost is a factor; so train and equip 30% to 50% of those in the unit deploying. For those who have not been provided a weapon, I must paraphrase Sgt Maj Plumley from "We Were Soldiers..." "... if the time comes [and you] need one, there'll be plenty lying on the ground."
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Lt Col Physician Assistant
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7 y
I believe that is a screen shot from "Dr. Strangelove"
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CMSgt James Nolan
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Mission Requirements and the LIMFACs known as time and funds.....It is hard enough for our CATM to get our own personnel fully qualified with all of all of our weapons, along with all of the personnel who require quals that our personnel must do. If they had to constantly qual all personnel, the staffing would go up exponentially, as would the budget. Never going to happen, and the bulk of our personnel don't have the "true need". Would it be great? Absolutely. Would I personally like to see it? Absolutely. Never going to happen.
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CMSgt James Nolan
CMSgt James Nolan
>1 y
SFC Mark Bailey - Those deploying have that requirement, and fulfill it as part of their pre-deployment training. Outside of that, the qualifications fall off based on their positions. Security Forces would love to have the personnel and range capabilities to handle it, but like I said, that will never happen. Too much money. And, to be clear, i would love to see everyone in all branches be much more proficient. I remember back in my Marine days, it was 2 weeks per year for everyone.....and everyone was proficient.....
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SFC Mark Bailey
SFC Mark Bailey
>1 y
CMSgt James Nolan - Unfortunately this is where you are taking a 'Service-wide cost savings approach' that does not take into account what your field leadership does. In the case of Afghanistan in 2009, at Bagram Air Field (an Army Runway, not a USAF Base) the local USAF one-star insisted that his Security Forces could handle perimeter security and perimeter patrols. Because they had the title 'Security Forces' it was assumed that they knew what they were doing. We were all horrified to discover within two weeks of them taking over that they had received only the very cursory training available and many were absolutely worthless. On top of that they were not even a single unit, since the USAF decided that individual servicemember morale was more important than real time actions in a war time time environment. The USAF deployed them for 90-180 days as single member assignments rather than as unit wide deployments. Even the aircrew of many of the C-17's complained that their normal assigned security forces that traveled with them had not been deployed with them.

So what we got was a polyglot replacement group that had never worked together before, and lacked any 'individual level training' in addition to the fact that they were now expected to operate as a trained unit within 7 days of arriving.

Feel free to send your people into harms way with nothing but a 30 day refresher course to sustain them.

But do not try to tell me that their training is anything that I should place the protection and security of the lives of the rest of the soldiers, sailors, and marines upon.
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Lt Col Walter Green
Lt Col Walter Green
4 y
Time and money are significant factors that do not sound like they could possibly be real, but they are. Most people do not see it, but I worked parts of the Air Force budget when I was on the TAC staff, and none of the services can run their weapons systems, train their people, equip them, and get them range time until the appropriate program element monitors in the bowls of the Pentagon won the battle of the budget. Arguing that everyone should be combat ready with their rifle is fine, as long as you will accept my argument that everyone in all the services should have been equally qualified in my primary weapon system in those days, a UPA-35 radar scope and multiple F-106 interceptors armed with AIR-2A nuclear rockets or F-102s with AIM-26A nuclear missiles (both really pretty airplanes). Hint - rifles would not have done squat against Soviet Long Range Aviation nuclear equipped bombers. Combat ready is combat ready - arguing about whether it is with a rifle or nuclear weapons is merely an argument about how much of civilization you can destroy. And yes, I stayed qualified with the M-16 and the Smith and Wesson 38 caliber Combat Masterpiece throughout my career, carried both in at two assignments, and was capable with the M-203 grenade launcher, and the M-60 machine gun. And yes, I was appropriately trained for ground defense duties. Sending untrained people to do combat jobs of any sort has never made any sense to me. In both of my assignments that required rifleman skills, there was no US Army and no US Marines within 150 miles. In one we were essentially expendable. In the other we would have been fighting on foot in the Alaskan wilderness after the nuclear laydown destroyed all our assets.
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LTJG Kevin Matthews
LTJG Kevin Matthews
>1 y
SFC Mark Bailey - I'll give that one star the benefit of the doubt that he asked his subordinate commanders/support staff if the security forces could do the job and his toadies reflexively said "No problem, SIR!". Either that, or HIS higher told him "If anybody asks, you WILL confirm that the USAF is combat ready and capable!" Suckups and military politicians will be the death of us all.

Now, if I'm wrong, if everybody with a pair of vocal cords was telling him "This ain't gonna work!" and he ignored them, I hope he had a very swift relief and was ushered into retirement where he couldn't get anyone killed.
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CMSgt Mike Esser
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Budgets. Where do you spend money, what has priority. USAF priorities differ from Army and Marines.
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SMSgt Jeff Kyle
SMSgt Jeff Kyle
>1 y
It was the same for me, only I was Marine Corps. I called it a chow hall all the way up till I retired (25 years). If I hurt someone’s feeling, my bad... not! Suck it up buttercup! It’s not about feelings, it’s about providing a service. Is it the best chow hall in the Air Force? I’ve eaten at a few “best in the Air Force” and they were truly outstanding.
I still think they spent too much money on plants you can’t eat but what the heck.MSgt (Join to see)
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MSgt Michael Madden
MSgt Michael Madden
4 y
The term we used was Mess Hall.
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Sgt Russ Brayton
Sgt Russ Brayton
3 y
So it comes down to dollars versus lives, and you’re comfortable with that?
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CMSgt Mike Esser
CMSgt Mike Esser
3 y
Sgt Russ Brayton Matters not what we think....the brass determines where money is spent. I love weapons training, would have done it daily if I could have. I simply stated. They will spend money as they see fit based upon C rating requirements and performance. If the money is not there, it's not there....it's why you have .50 cal simulators......to save money.
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SGT James Elphick
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It's for the same reasons the Navy no longer trains sailors on the M4/M16 (just M9 and shotgun) because for most AF personnel it doesn't make sense and it is a wasteful expenditure. Keeping up weapons proficiency for that many people takes up alot of money that the AF would rather, and should, spend elsewhere. That is why your position exists, to secure forward locations so that the AF personnel inside are safe.
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Maj Assistant Director Of Operations
Maj (Join to see)
>1 y
PO1 John Miller - That is correct. She got picked up to do full time support with reservists and ended up staying off of ships.
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PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
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Maj (Join to see)
Sounds about right. FTS types very rarely if ever qualified on weapons unless they are the odd ones who got stationed on ships. I did meet a few FTS Sailors who were ship's company.
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PO3 David Clark
PO3 David Clark
3 y
As an HM3, 88-91, we were given the option to qualify but it was never mandatory. Of course we also didn't have to do Morning PT like the rest of the base (my wife HATED me for that; "you're not part of the 'real navy'!) but paid for it dearly when PT test came around. At Roosey Roads, I think the only non-HM doing ANYTHING at the Hospital (Admin, supply, mail, etc) was the Chaplains Asst. I also never went to sea, so if it was required, missed out on that. When Gulf War broke out, we had an extra training on security awareness because of the local terrorists but no other armed training mentioned.
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Cpl Roman Makuch
Cpl Roman Makuch
3 y
Navy is on a ship and underway. Tough for a sapper to get through. AF is sitting fat, dumb and happy on a chunk of concrete that is a nice fat target for the unfriendlies. Waiting for someone else to deal with the sapper that got through will cost many lives and aircraft.
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Lt Col Stephen Petzold
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This same question was being asked within the Air Force 25 years ago when I first started. The base I started out at had a lot of folks who had recently transferred off of the Ground Launched Cruise Missile units in Europe and had a lot more ground combat training than the average USAF member had. They always had an issue with the basic USAF doctrine of relying solely on SF and having everyone else hide under something.

Although there are exceptions, I think a majority of USAF members would like more weapons training, but I think several of the factors others here have mentioned have come into play.

We are not a ground combat force. So thus much of our time and funding is directed elsewhere. Even our deployment CAST training is not detailed ground combat training. It is just a brief overview so when the Army Sgt yells "stack on me" we at least have some idea of what he wants us to do. Even when we do deploy most of our bases have Army or Marine units stationed there.

I do not think that we will ever get to the point where every airman is a rifleman, but in today's asymmetric terrorist world we cannot guarantee that an attack might not be just as likely at a stateside base as one in Afghanistan. It would be nice to see training and exercises that teach more than just hiding under a desk.
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SGT Squad Leader
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Edited 9 y ago
I've seen infantrymen in rifle companies and other combat MOSes struggle to qualify and make embarrassing blunders as well. It happens. The only real cure is range time and off-range drills, but for most organizations at a unit level that means drawing weapons out of the armsroom and taking time off from whatever else they'd be doing.

Depending on the purpose and mission of the unit, that's simply not going to happen in a lot of cases. That's why in a perfect world there will always be force protection or an escort element staffed by people who remember how to insert their magazine.
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CPT Ray Doeksen
CPT Ray Doeksen
>1 y
Yep, there's no substitute for good, realistic training and practice with weapons... "Summer learning loss" is real, no matter how smart or experienced you are, and it's always a struggle for the training planners. There need to be better training aids, more accessible (service-shared) facilities and more frequent refresher training. Not to mention more budget for little line items like blanks, training rounds and live ammo.
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TSgt Special Operations Forces/Personnel Recover (SOF/PR) Integrated Instruments and Flight Controls Systems
TSgt (Join to see)
7 y
The Air Force is swamping its troops with pointless, soul sucking CBTs. Get rid of these and you'll have a TON more time. Then find and get rid of the MILLIONS of dollars worth of waste (the AF takes the cake here) and they will have both the time and the money to train.
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TSgt David Scott
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I was in the AF for twenty years, and a Desert Storm vet. It was so upsetting to me that many of the airmen that I served with in Saudi Arabia couldn't shoot their way out of a wet paper bag. To make matters worse the day after we arrived in Rhiad they (USAF) took our M-16's from us. I spent the next four months there empty handed and they wonder why I was paranoid. AF really needs to rethink their position on that
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Capt James Warren
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I see both sides of the argument; as an enlisted flight line worker I qualified expert on the M16 and M4. As an officer I qualified on the M9, but the writing was on the wall from the start: if I was responsible for the defense of the installation, we'd lost the war, and were simply trying to survive. In the Air Force, SF provides Force Protection. That's doctrine. Me as an Intelligence officer maneuvering on the battlefield is ridiculous when my mission set provides so much more to the overall fight from inside the hardened facility (RPA ops).
But here's the other side: I made sure I understood how to maintain and operate the weapons I'm qualified in, and I maintain that proficiency on my own time, on my own dime. I own the civilian version of each one (and some others), and I regularly visit my local range to keep my skills sharp. It's not like riding a bicycle, your skills stagnate. I'm committed to serving in the profession of arms, and in the case of the Air Force, that means going beyond the requirement to ensure you're prepared for the fight you hope never comes.
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TSgt Louis Nieves
TSgt Louis Nieves
4 y
Amen!
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TSgt Marco McDowell
12
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Since I've been a Jarhead and a Flyboy, I can tell you that there are Marines who lack basic weapon handling skills as well. I had a secondary MOS as a marksmanship instructor and eventually moved to the range full time. Basic rifleman is something used as a propaganda tool. Sure, non-grunts, POGs, whatever you want to call us do receive training as all Marines do in bootcamp and MCT and we glorified it as Marine Corps history, but times have changed for all services. When you get to the FMF, depending on what your "POG" job is, you may play games a few times, just so you don't forget the basics. Some folks only fire their assigned weapon during quals and a lot of them suck or go UNQ(but hey now everyone uses optics and not iron sights so it's becoming moot). If your MOS ties you into a GCE, you'll get to have fun with the groundpounders or in support of them and so will get more in depth training and trigger time. Heck, you may even specialize in something (woohoo demo calc!). Now what I saw weapons handling wise from airmen was no different. There were guys who could not shoot at 25m inside the fancy setups most bases have and some who were locked in. A SSgt tried to insert his magazine into his ejection port (yes, I switched firing positions after seeing it). I also witnessed a Marine try to load into the barrel of a M-9. I've seen men and women from both services baffled by a speed loader and some who knew it like their own forehead. I'm pretty sure the 03's don't want the guy in the potshack covering his flank anymore than you would want that comm guy covering yours, but that's what that training is for. Hopefully you corrected him/her and gave them the basics to at least load, point and shoot, enough so to give support in the event zombies attack. Fortunately todays battle sphere entails joint operations and layers of defenses provided to massive airfields. If a human wave attack has breached the perimeter and made it to the flightline, I'm pretty sure the guys turning wrenches won't be situationally aware as to what is going on unless you have personnel posted around the ramp just for that...and I'm certain that's why SFs, MPs and MOAs are cruising around the airfield. Besides, have you tried climbing into an overwing fairing with a M-4 slung? it's all about manpower, time, mission and money, if you can devise a program that would allow training, maybe during your wing ORE, your commander may be keen to follow through on it.
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TSgt Gary McPherson
TSgt Gary McPherson
>1 y
I also came from the Corps as a armor/instructor but way back in the 50s where if you could not qual out you went.I'm sure the marines have changed a lot since then.I went into the USAF and almost every base/station I was stationed all military members had to quail with the .38 and the M1 carbine.
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LtCol Bruce Janis
LtCol Bruce Janis
3 y
I was the Small Arms Range Officer for USMCAS Yuma in the late60s. Everyone qualifies, or was counseled. The Air awing does the same job as any Air Force Base, but they, somehow, manage to qualify,
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Sgt Russ Brayton
Sgt Russ Brayton
3 y
My son was an airframe mech on the HTML’s in the wing and at Camp Bastion when the insurgents blew up a couple of Harriers.The British were supposedly guarding the base. He was glad he had the “minimal” training he did. I was a cook when I was in. I have a forth award on my expert badge, and this was with the iron sights. I was also required to stand guard duty after hours. I was an NCO so I didn’t actually walk a post. And this is all as a cook.
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