Posted on Apr 14, 2015
LTC John Shaw
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Why has Europe developed it's train network and America has not.
Many government dollars go into developing the Airport infrastructure, why not Air to Train for most American big cities?
Yes, the US has less population density, cars and fuel are cheaper.
Culturally are we just resistant to Trains?

http://www.amtrak.com/train-routes
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Responses: 41
SrA Matthew Knight
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Of the choices the car choice is best for me I guess.

Normally I drive because anywhere that I generally go is within driving distance and I go crazy not having my car for an extended period.

If I were to go somewhere that I couldn't drive or another option would be a better choice I would choose to fly simply because I enjoy aviation. Being on a train can be scenic but so far the only thing I can think of that would beat a sunrise at 30k feet would be seeing the sunrise or anything really from the perspective of the ISS. The sky could really be my second home if I had the money for it.
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
Spoken as a true Airman! Nothing sexy about the rails compared to a pretty aircraft in the sky.
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SSgt Michael Orcutt
SSgt Michael Orcutt
11 y
I don't know... I think I would rather be in a Amtrak than a Vietnam era C-130 with a honey bucket for 7 hours! Those flights from Albuquerque to South Florida on an old C-130 weren't fun... but hey, i'm sure neither were flights to the desert either.
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MAJ Senior Observer   Controller/Trainer
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I wish I could choose more than one option.  In addition to not being available on the line that runs through the town I'm living in, Amtrak service in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area that provides service to west to North Dakota and onward to Seattle or east to Chicago has been subject to severe delays and stoppages due to the heavy volume of oil train traffic coming out of the Bakken Oil Fields of North Dakota.

In years past, I have traveled with several buddies to Devil's Lake, ND for an extended weekend of ice fishing.  Local resorts have long offered package deals to those who traveled to them via Amtrak, and for years it was a great deal.  Not anymore.  Thanks to the oil trains, Amtrak traffic can be forced to a siding for as many as 7 hours before getting the signal to proceed again.

Prior to the completion of the Interstate highway system, we had a viable network of commercial rail service.  With affordable gasoline and roads that went everywhere quickly, the railroads couldn't make passenger service work without massive Federal subsidies.  Rather than continue to play that game, Congress authorized the formation of Amtrak, and the government entered the passenger rail service business in 1970.  It has struggled to remain viable ever since.
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
MAJ (Join to see) Wow, I can see huge value in rail going across country, but I have never had the time to do this.

Why I started this discussion is to learn more about subsidy of rail, air, car as modes of transportation. There is no clear subsidy information on Air, it seems to be broken up by Airport and we ignore the security cost. I am conservative and don't want to spend more than we must.

I am surprised that I can't find clear info on what modes of transport cost for our society. I am certain we subsidize Air way more than we know.

Like most people, I prefer car for convenience and control or Air for speed, but I am learning that Rail is not the boondoggle I first thought...
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MAJ Senior Observer   Controller/Trainer
MAJ (Join to see)
11 y
One significant challenge with rail Sir, is the fact that when railroads abandoned commercial passenger service in the late 60s or early 70s, they downgraded the level of maintenance provided on their lines, because they now only had to maintain lines at a level suitable for the movement of freight; passenger comfort and the provision of a smooth, gliding ride was no longer a factor. On the lines Amtrak intended to continue to provide service, the government provided the subsidies that paid for the necessary track maintenance necessary for passenger service. Today, the expansion of passenger rail service beyond the existing Amtrak network is often deemed unfeasible due to the costs of line upgrades.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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1) Independence. If I want to go somewhere. I get in my car and go.

2) Expense. We've made cars 'relatively' affordable for most Americans. Almost to the point where it's cheaper than rail systems. I live outside DC, and riding the metro would add up REALLY quickly, in comparison to cars. We also keep our gas prices significantly cheaper than other countries.

3) Rite of passage. Getting a driver's license is sort a of a rite of passage, or at least it used to be.

4) Logistics. Eisenhower Interstate System. We built the roads. We're designed around them, not rails anymore. Sure we move A LOT of things on rail. We do, but not people.
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
@Sgt Aaron Kennedy Excellent summary! The metro is likely the best example and run rail network in the states. DC is already deadlocked during drive time, w/o rail, I can't imagine. I wonder if we are bearing more real societal cost by ignoring rail and what it could become verses Air, road and bridge subsidies.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
11 y
LTC John Shaw The internet age is actually changing this dramatically. Those of us with teenagers can probably see the difference in "desire" for a Driver's License as compared to when we were 16.

We no longer have to leave our homes for a new Album, Movie, Book etc. We're not as tied to vehicles as we used to be. I have a feeling that this will help over the next 2~ generations, from a perceptual point.
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
Agreed, my oldest son, 17, and daughter, 18, don't like to drive and were not begging to get licenses at 16. Car cost + Insurance + congested roads causing stress, my kids would love rail as an option.
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CPT Alan W.
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I'll take a train when it make sense. Usually if the train trip is more than 3 hours, it's more convenient to fly. I use light rail/commuter rail all the time when I'm in a place that has it.
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CPT Jack Durish
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I commuted by rail on those occasions where it was feasible, but that was rare.

The government subsidized the trucking industry (including an Interstate Highway system) that makes rail transportation less economical than motor transport. Also, America is more spread out than Europe. Rail transit for passengers is not efficient for riders, especially when there is no mass transit system to carry passengers to and from terminals.

There are exceptions such as NY and SF which have excellent urban transit systems, but populations in these cities are compressed into small areas.
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Lt Col Jim Coe
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Voted too expensive because it is more expensive for cross country trips than air travel.

The post-WWII development of highways and suburbs along with interstates killed rail. OTR trucking became less expensive and provided better value and convenience.
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
I agree, until we have high-speed rail, if ever, that Air and Car will continue to be the dominant transportation methods in the States.
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CAPT Kevin B.
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If you ever watched the PBS series, "The Men Who Built America", you can see the initial pathways transportation was taking. The interesting thing is what happened after. Rail made more money with cargo. Oil and Detroit lobbied for highways which would create a demand for cars. That paradigm continued through the '60s. The Red Car service and other city streetcar services were killed off by car and tire manufacturers greasing politicians in addition to buying a controlling interest in some cities and then killing it more directly in the '40s and '50s.

So we don't have a rail infrastructure that would support general public transit. I have taken the Coast Starlight from LA to Seattle. Service was horrible. Some light rail has worked out fairly well. Portland comes to mind and there is some around LAX. There was a much more ambitious light rail project in LA but was converted to "busways" over old rail easements. The political types bought into a small community saying they'd be culturally severed by ground level rails (the type you see with concrete around them). The Busway is very heavily used but really begs for the capacity light rail can provide.
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
Kevin, Thanks for sharing your experience and historical comments.
More Rail history at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_the_United_States
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CPO Bernie Penkin
CPO Bernie Penkin
11 y
Hello Kevin you made some great point until you mentioned Portland's light rail system. I live in Washington and work in Portland. The rail system here is expensive and a money pit. Fare prices are kept artificially low and there are no turnstiles so many riders don't pay the fare. Oddly enough voters routinely turn down light rail expansion, but the city ignores the vote and will expand lines. I used to ride the local rail until crime got bad enought that I decided not to risk it.
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
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The size of the country would be detracter for travel. Americans in general do not like being held to a schedule set by others. It seemed to work well in Europe, considering the size of any of the countries involved. Imagine trying to go to California by rail. Unless you have a bullet train.you would be using a lot of time trying to get there
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
New technology has not applied to rail yet, Elan Musk is a huge advocate for bullet trains.
It looks like high-speed rail is off to a slow start...
http://www.xpresswest.com
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CPT Jack Durish
CPT Jack Durish
11 y
Does it really work for Europe? I have read that every rail system in Europe is highly subsidized by the governments there (contributing greatly to the sorry state of their economies)
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
SFC Kenneth Hunnell
11 y
Cpt. Jack Durish, I never said it was cheap to run. I believe the way their economy is set up, makes it workable. Have you seen the taxes that people pay. The people pay for the rail system. Then again when they use it.
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PO2 Disabled Veteran Outreach Program
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I would love to take it more if it were an option near me. I hate driving anywhere and flying civilian is just the worst. I have used the trains everywhere else I have been and I love it.
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SMSgt Thomas Chatburn
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America is so large, rail travel is impractical, but ideal for the movement of freight. Europe is ideally suited for passenger rail. On this subject, The U.S. government needs to privatize Amtrak and let the market decide if passenger rail is sustainable. I think not. Until then Amtrak will continue to hemorrhage money by the box car.
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LTC John Shaw
LTC John Shaw
11 y
Some argue that rail is more cost effective and Americans actually spend more $$$ subsidy on Air and Road.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2011/11/road-v-rail
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
11 y
SMSgt Thomas Chatburn The trip from New York to Los Angeles by train takes 43 hours and 15 minutes. You can get up, walk around, eat decent meals, enjoy the scenery, change who you are talking to, have a decent drink out of a real bottle and in a real glass, talk to people who actually know something about the country you are travelling through, get a full nights sleep in a bed with sheets. and even (on some trains) have a smoke. [First class fare around $2300 for one or around $2500 for two.]

By First Class air it would take 6 hours and 40 minutes (actually closer to 10 hours and 40 minutes once you factor in the airport delays) and cost around $2,400 for one fare and around $4,800 for two - while foregoing almost all of "You can get up, walk around, eat decent meals, enjoy the scenery, change who you are talking to, have a decent drink out of a real bottle and in a real glass, talk to people who actually know something about the country you are travelling through, get a full nights sleep in a bed with sheets.".

The real reason why Americans don't take the train is that the railroads don't want passenger service because freight service has a much higher profit margin while steers and pigs don't complain about crowded and filthy accommodations.
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