Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 210
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Nope, sure didn't either time, and then I was standing in front of a desk at Attention, explaining Myself to the Shiny on the Shoulder, and getting My hand slapped for not having any tact.
BTW; When the MMRB said I'd had enough at 10.5 years, I had 3 knots on My GCR.
BTW; When the MMRB said I'd had enough at 10.5 years, I had 3 knots on My GCR.
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Hard question. A service member has a duty not to obey an unlawful order. Having said that, such a service member had better be very, very, very (plus a bunch more verys) sure they are on solid footing.
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Not a chance in hell. It is God and then country. And I swore an oath to protect this nation from enemies foreign and domestic. That oath does not end with or exclude our nations leadership. If my personal salvation and my nation's freedom are in jeopardy I will not second guess doing what is legally, ethically and morally right.
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SPC(P) (Join to see)
SGT Nathan H. Those violate the moral and ethical codes. Even if they become law.
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SFC (Join to see)
SGT Nathan H. - People fought back against Jim Crow laws - which is why they aren't law anymore.
I don't see anytime in the near future that Congress or any states would enact those type of laws again.
I don't see anytime in the near future that Congress or any states would enact those type of laws again.
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SPC(P) (Join to see)
SGT Nathan H. You're given a direct order to do something you know in your soul is wrong. Say overseas, total violation of the geniva convention, no witnesses. But if you disobey this direct order you could be criminally charged with whatever "crime" the person who ordered you to do this, comes up with. Do you commit this crime to save face with your commanding officer and avoid punishment or do you give a one finger salute and do what is right? That's what this comes down to. Lets call this question what it really is...
When Marshall law comes and you're forced to enforce curfews, when you're guarding those who are burning books, when you're forcing people to take vaccines they dont feel are safe, when you're "relocating" those who openly exercise their 1st and 2and amendment rights, when the USA you know becomes Nazi Germany, will you "follow orders" and regurgitate "it's for your safety" or will you stand and fight against the enemies at our gate even though they're your superiors?
When Marshall law comes and you're forced to enforce curfews, when you're guarding those who are burning books, when you're forcing people to take vaccines they dont feel are safe, when you're "relocating" those who openly exercise their 1st and 2and amendment rights, when the USA you know becomes Nazi Germany, will you "follow orders" and regurgitate "it's for your safety" or will you stand and fight against the enemies at our gate even though they're your superiors?
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The answer is no..however, given the state of the elections and their "irregularities" it might be necessary to ensure the integrity of the election process. If the integrity is lost, the country is lost. Remember Honest Abe did it to keep the union together during the Civil War. Not so much different here...
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SSG Bill McCoy
Capt Gregory Prickett - You have a point; BUT, LTC Raymond Buenteo clearly stated, "We aren't talking shooting somen and children," but rather orders that would (certainly), "... have been vetted EXTENSIVLEY through legal minds," like SJA/JAG and the DOJ's AG's Office. Therefore, refusing to obey such an order would clearly be incorrect. [CAPS adde for emphasis.]
Response to the original question should not be focused on the Jan 6th events as they seem to be. The ISSUE most certainly SHOULD be whether or not orders (ANY orders) have been properly vetted - CLEARED through legal hurdles, or not.
Response to the original question should not be focused on the Jan 6th events as they seem to be. The ISSUE most certainly SHOULD be whether or not orders (ANY orders) have been properly vetted - CLEARED through legal hurdles, or not.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
SSG Bill McCoy - You are incorrect, from a legal standpoint. It doesn't matter who vetted it, or ordered you to do it, that's still the Nürnberg defense, and it doesn't work. "Notably, there is no historical support for the duress defense when a soldier follows a military order he knows to be unlawful." Negusie v. Holder, 129 St.C. 1159, 1169 (2009) (J. Scalia, concurring). Each individual is responsible for not following an illegal order, period.
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SSG Stephen Arnold
Abe did many unconstitutional things that got glossed over in the history books.
Research the creation of states. Consider West Virginia.
Research the suspension of Habeas Corpus.
This list goes on. He drastically weakened state sovereignty, rending the very fabric of the founding of our nation.
Research the creation of states. Consider West Virginia.
Research the suspension of Habeas Corpus.
This list goes on. He drastically weakened state sovereignty, rending the very fabric of the founding of our nation.
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LTC David Brown
LTC Raymond Buenteo - unless you have people bragging about a “ nice work around” to an unconstitutional order like using OSHA to mandate vaccines.
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Everyone will say "no", but recent events indicate half of you would do so with a smile...
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LTC David Brown
1/2 of America wasn’t “ rooting for the riot. I was appalled, I have repeatedly stated I detest political violence and those that justify it on either side. Trump should have conceded, period. Having a rally did nothing and I knew it would do nothing and I am a Trump supporter and I know many who are like me.
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A President declaring martial law or invoking the Insurrection Act is not unconstitutional. If a new President is sworn in, the the old President is no longer the President and cannot issue any military order. Don't understand the problem here.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Actually declaring martial law is unconstitutional without certain conditions being present, which are not present in this scenario.
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SSG Bill McCoy
Capt Gregory Prickett - You are correct sir, but there was NO order given to the military relative to the case instant (election results) - Not by then President Trump. Any discussions, by then President Trump about the Insurrection Act are moot - didn't happen.
(The NG deployment is a separate issue which I state so any replies to this comment realize I recognzie that.)
(The NG deployment is a separate issue which I state so any replies to this comment realize I recognzie that.)
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Capt Gregory Prickett
SSG Bill McCoy - And no one said that there was such an order, that I'm aware of.
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Not just no but F* no I would never follow an illegal, unethical, immoral or unconstitutional order. Ever. No one should because our oath is to support and defend the Constitution and obey LAWFUL orders.
Also your article is from June...so...it really doesn't apply to him losing the election or anything election related.
Also your article is from June...so...it really doesn't apply to him losing the election or anything election related.
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