Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
The purpose of this post is to stir the pot. Political posts should be banned from RallyPoint.
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Cpl Benjamin Long
Sgt (Join to see) well I assume you can shake a fist at the sky and curse those heretics...
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LTC John Wilson
There is not a single thing "political" about this question! It is a legitimate question that MUST be asked... History proves that failure to address the issue beforehand and ensure that our profession conducts itself morally and ethically WILL lead to atrocities.
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SGT David Spearel
SPC (Join to see) I couldn’t disagree with you more. Trump didn’t win and all his lies and false narratives won’t change that. I had serious misgivings allowing him access to classified information and documents considering the crimes he’s accused of would have been grounds to deny any kind of clearance granted to anyone. He’s been treated with kid gloves by those who continue to enable him and it’s time he takes responsibility for his actions. Having access to classified materials isn’t given to just everyone and Trump can’t be trusted again a second time.
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SPC (Join to see)
SGT David Spearel - Well DemoncRAT how does it feel to know that u voted for Hitler.
ur the ones with the FALSE narrative. U do not go from more Trump supporters showing up and ONE biden/harris rally and have that number of Trump supporters be more than all biden/harris showing up to any of their meetings or rallies EVER. And they NEVER turned over the machines. And there was proven demoncRAT voter fraud. U should be demoted kid.
UR Nazi kind, DemoncRAT even went after him to throw him out of office b4 he won the 1st election, U never quit going to war with Trump for 10 years now and not once have u done anything in line with the Constitution in ANYTHING u have done,
If We The PEOPLE went after demoncRATS, and we have everyone of u on TREASON and would convict u all in one day. like u did Trump.
EVERYTHING u put in place had Falsified paperwork. U lied to the Fisa Court. And only PROVED demoncrats did what u claimed Trump did.
ur the ones with the FALSE narrative. U do not go from more Trump supporters showing up and ONE biden/harris rally and have that number of Trump supporters be more than all biden/harris showing up to any of their meetings or rallies EVER. And they NEVER turned over the machines. And there was proven demoncRAT voter fraud. U should be demoted kid.
UR Nazi kind, DemoncRAT even went after him to throw him out of office b4 he won the 1st election, U never quit going to war with Trump for 10 years now and not once have u done anything in line with the Constitution in ANYTHING u have done,
If We The PEOPLE went after demoncRATS, and we have everyone of u on TREASON and would convict u all in one day. like u did Trump.
EVERYTHING u put in place had Falsified paperwork. U lied to the Fisa Court. And only PROVED demoncrats did what u claimed Trump did.
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PFC Kimberly Staiti
reason: Dish Network has been carrying Fox since it began. Dish Network's target demographic is rural folks. The more rural, the more likely to be Dish customers.
My folks only choice was Dish. If you had been receiving Fox as your only source for news and info, I bet you'd believe them. The propaganda force is strong with them...
(It was recently announced that the parent company of Dish said it will cease to carry Fox.)
My folks only choice was Dish. If you had been receiving Fox as your only source for news and info, I bet you'd believe them. The propaganda force is strong with them...
(It was recently announced that the parent company of Dish said it will cease to carry Fox.)
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PFC Kimberly Staiti
PO2 Robert Cuminale
Google it, dude.
AP, Reuters, The Boston Globe, NYT, WaPo, WSJ, CNN, CBS, etc. all refute those early estimates you have.
Babbitt, God rest her soul, breached the perimeter. She had a record (that you can find) of repeated physical violence and threats. She also supported and expected violence according to her own social media. 140 Capitol Police officers were injured, some fatally, some permanently. One person died of a heart attack. At least four officers have died as a direct result of their service that day. Someone else from the crowd passed away, too.
I'm too tired to keep this Convo going. Just got a drive-thru covid test and I was on the road for an hour and a half. I can't shake this fever so I don't know if I'm even coherent to you.
Peace to you.
Google it, dude.
AP, Reuters, The Boston Globe, NYT, WaPo, WSJ, CNN, CBS, etc. all refute those early estimates you have.
Babbitt, God rest her soul, breached the perimeter. She had a record (that you can find) of repeated physical violence and threats. She also supported and expected violence according to her own social media. 140 Capitol Police officers were injured, some fatally, some permanently. One person died of a heart attack. At least four officers have died as a direct result of their service that day. Someone else from the crowd passed away, too.
I'm too tired to keep this Convo going. Just got a drive-thru covid test and I was on the road for an hour and a half. I can't shake this fever so I don't know if I'm even coherent to you.
Peace to you.
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SPC (Join to see)
PFC Kimberly Staiti - U must be a demoncrat. And as non committal an answer as there is. Tho one word is as much as a demoncrat can handle to do more than that requires intelligence.
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Although I like where your head is at, but come on man, "Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic...."
Seriously???
You know the answer. This is nothing but a stick to the hornets' nest for no other reason then to see factions fighting each other on US soil
Seriously???
You know the answer. This is nothing but a stick to the hornets' nest for no other reason then to see factions fighting each other on US soil
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PO3 Grigorie Draghici
SPC Jeff Jones - Devil's Advocate, but what happens if you actually encountered a pig that could sing...in that rare case, wouldn't arguing pointless politics on the internet, actually be a good thing?
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MSgt J D McKee
PO3 Grigorie Draghici - It would be bling or bacon, bitch, from me to the pig. Sing until your nose bleeds, daddy wants a new pair of shoes.
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I'm going to recount what the JAG Attorney told us during a briefing at OCS in 2010.
She said that if you *believe* any order is unlawful, unethical, or unconstitutional, ask the person who issued the order to restate the order, and explain his/her intent of the order. If you still believe the order to be unlawful, unethical, or unconstitutional, you then ask for the order to be given in writing, and signed by the person issuing the order. Regardless of whether or not you get it in writing, you verbally object to the order, and your basis for doing so. You gather witness names, the date, time, and location for later investigation, and then you obey the order. Once in a place and time you can report the incident, you do, giving all the details.
By not obeying the order, you can be charged with insubordination, mutiny, and whatever else a prosecutor wishes to charge you with, especially if your opinion was wrong.
That was the LEGAL ADVICE given to us by a JAG Attorney.
She said that if you *believe* any order is unlawful, unethical, or unconstitutional, ask the person who issued the order to restate the order, and explain his/her intent of the order. If you still believe the order to be unlawful, unethical, or unconstitutional, you then ask for the order to be given in writing, and signed by the person issuing the order. Regardless of whether or not you get it in writing, you verbally object to the order, and your basis for doing so. You gather witness names, the date, time, and location for later investigation, and then you obey the order. Once in a place and time you can report the incident, you do, giving all the details.
By not obeying the order, you can be charged with insubordination, mutiny, and whatever else a prosecutor wishes to charge you with, especially if your opinion was wrong.
That was the LEGAL ADVICE given to us by a JAG Attorney.
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
I agree with you Unger, I had a situation once where I had a female airman in my unit and her husband in another unit going after each other to the point I knew if I didn't get involved someone was going to really get hurt or killed. My airman went to the IG and filed a complaint against me saying I was mixing into their affairs. The IG called me in and told me to step back. I explained what was going on and that I felt someone would either get killed or hurt. The IG felt that we were over stepping our bounds and needed to step back. I told the IG they would have to put it in writing to protect my commander and me, which they did. Less then one month later she stabbed her husband to death.
That written order saved both my commander and me from being blamed in anyway for not doing our duty.
Another incident that comes to mind is the one that happened in My Lai VN, when a Army Capt William Calley ordered his men to round up the village of primarily women, children and older men and kill them. At his trial, Capt Calley was found guilty of premeditated murder for ordering the shootings, despite his contention that he was only following orders from his commanding officer Capt Medina. Capt Calley was the only one who was sentenced to prison for life, but that eventually was reduced to only three years.
I know that a person has to really be sure they are right before refusing to follow a lawful order - you have to be ready to except the consequence if you are wrong.
That written order saved both my commander and me from being blamed in anyway for not doing our duty.
Another incident that comes to mind is the one that happened in My Lai VN, when a Army Capt William Calley ordered his men to round up the village of primarily women, children and older men and kill them. At his trial, Capt Calley was found guilty of premeditated murder for ordering the shootings, despite his contention that he was only following orders from his commanding officer Capt Medina. Capt Calley was the only one who was sentenced to prison for life, but that eventually was reduced to only three years.
I know that a person has to really be sure they are right before refusing to follow a lawful order - you have to be ready to except the consequence if you are wrong.
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SFC Robert Walton
@ SSG(P) Matthew Unger: During my Military Career we were told to bring in our privately owned weapons in and register them and lock them in the arms room. This started a fire storm from even people that did not own a POW. I never heard the use of the 2nd Amendment rights use so much before or since this. I as a Platoon SGT. Look at the First SGT. and ask you sure you heard that right 1SGT.? He stated he did i quickly told him i refuse to follow and Order the violates the Constitution of the United States so better call the Mp's because i am sure your going to get the same answer from a lot of Soldiers. It took about four hours to rescind that order and it was never explained to us where the ball drop was. I was ask if i owned a POW i said NO (not quite the truth but close enough). and entire unit of 395 Soldiers refused that order before it was Rescinded. The issue was dropped.
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SFC Robert Walton
MSgt Gilbert Jones - Capt Calley Um No LT Calley: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/calley-charged-for-my-lai-massacre
Lt. William Calley charged for My Lai massacre
Lt. William Calley is charged with six specifications of premeditated murder in the death of 109 Vietnamese civilians at My Lai in March 1968. Calley, a
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COL Victor Hagan
MAJ Bryan Zeski Exactly! I would have asked her how that defense worked in the Nurenburg Trials.
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The answer to the general question is obvious: NO.
The problem is the scenario presented fails a basic civics test. The Electoral College elects the president. However, there are two additional facts that are being ignored:
1. If the EC cannot determine a winner, the vote goes to the House. This has already occurred twice in our history.
2. Even after the EC determines a winner, the House must certify the election. This is true of EVERY presidential election.
Stop listening to the lying media. There is no "president elect" until the House convenes IN JANUARY.
The problem is the scenario presented fails a basic civics test. The Electoral College elects the president. However, there are two additional facts that are being ignored:
1. If the EC cannot determine a winner, the vote goes to the House. This has already occurred twice in our history.
2. Even after the EC determines a winner, the House must certify the election. This is true of EVERY presidential election.
Stop listening to the lying media. There is no "president elect" until the House convenes IN JANUARY.
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SSG Bill McCoy
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - I guess you missed all the House & Senate Democrats who immediately stated when the election was called in favor of Trump, that he would be impeached; not to mention the comments by the news media.
I don't care if anyone supports Biden, or supports Trump. The issue is FAR above my paygrade as they say. Biden IS my President - I don't have to like it, but I have to accept it. Same when Trump was elected - I didn't have to like it, but I had to accept it.
As someone else, SGT Kenneth Brady noted, the "Office of the President Elect," was new & never before seen or used. Ego perhaps? Bait for Trump to take? Don't know; don't really care.
Focusing on the January 6th events, at this point in time, is a total waste of time. "It is what it is," and it's OVER.
I don't care if anyone supports Biden, or supports Trump. The issue is FAR above my paygrade as they say. Biden IS my President - I don't have to like it, but I have to accept it. Same when Trump was elected - I didn't have to like it, but I had to accept it.
As someone else, SGT Kenneth Brady noted, the "Office of the President Elect," was new & never before seen or used. Ego perhaps? Bait for Trump to take? Don't know; don't really care.
Focusing on the January 6th events, at this point in time, is a total waste of time. "It is what it is," and it's OVER.
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MAJ William Guglielmi
The person is the President Elect on the day the Electoral College meet in December unless no one has a majority. Attend a civics class. The Senate and the House certify the results.
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
Which media are you referring to, Fox news and the other right wing so call news?
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
MAJ William Guglielmi - When I attended high school civics was a requirement and in order to graduate, you had to pass a civic test.
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I've heard of whatabout'ism, but whatif'ism is frustrated cargo. SLOP (s**t left on pier). Anyone that has taken any Oath knows the answer.
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Nope, sure didn't either time, and then I was standing in front of a desk at Attention, explaining Myself to the Shiny on the Shoulder, and getting My hand slapped for not having any tact.
BTW; When the MMRB said I'd had enough at 10.5 years, I had 3 knots on My GCR.
BTW; When the MMRB said I'd had enough at 10.5 years, I had 3 knots on My GCR.
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