Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
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I think this is a legitimate question, but only on an individual basis and not one to be discussed on this open forum. Each AD individual may have to answer this personally, because it has happened before and could happen again. The example I have in mind occurred in 1970 at Kent State University in Ohio. Ohio National Guard troops fired on students protesting the Viet Nam War. Nobody knows for sure if an actual order was given to fire of it it was a "shot heard 'round the world" incident like at Lexington Green at the beginning of the Revolution, but the troops did have live ammunition and students were killed and wounded. It could happen again. We need to think about it NOW!
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My oath when I joined the army as a private and when I took it again with my appointment to Lieutenant was "to defend the Constitution of the United States. . ." So I could not follow a order that I knew was a violation of the Constition.
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NO !! If it is illegal or immoral, we do not have to obey it. We are to defend our Constitution against all enemies, foreign and/or domestic...
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Really? You have to do better work on hiding your intentions. The salient question in your post has nothing to do with the web link provided.
I say again. Really? Frank and friendly?
I say again. Really? Frank and friendly?
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No. I have disobeyed orders during my career that I deemed illegal, such as killing or maiming non-combatants and insurgents who have surrendered willingly. I caught some serious heat from my NCOs and company commander when I got back inside the wire. But when I explained my actions and the actions of others going on around me to them (with the 1SG, CSM, BTL CPT, and BN CMDR present) the senior leaders saw that I did "the right thing" and that REALLY pissed off my NCOs and company commander because they were trying to get me killed on the regular and make it look like an accident. But that's just me. I can sleep at night without drugs, liquor, or medicine when I do what's right. That's important to me.
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What a great question and added to it should be "would you fire on Americans if ordered to do so?" Also would you, as a company commander, order your company to shoot at Americans if ordered to do so? Relevant to Jan 6th the gumint says there were about 500 rioters that busted into the Capitol Building but it looked to be more like 2-300 to me max. All the rest were protestors standing around outside and weren't involved with the break-in. So suppose some of the rioters who were inside the building started to fire at the capitol police and the police started firing back. Now comes the Marines or the National Guard and they are ordered to "use lethal force" to quell the disturbance. How do you decide who to shoot at without killing innocent bystanders? Would you give the order? Is the order legal? Hope to hear from the upper brass on this one. Pete
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SP5 Norman McGill
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - I was very much concerned about the riots all over the country during the summer of 2020. None of that happened near me but it was scary to think that was happening in this country. However the thing that disturbed me the most was that the states involved did absolutely nothing to stop any of it. Nobody called out the Guard, nobody called DC for help, police were told to stand down while these angry people tore down street lights, smashed store windows, burned whole blocks of businesses to the ground and then looted what was left. I really don't know what to all this type of activity but I do know that if the call had come in asking for help it would have been given without delay and the problems solved very fast. But the call never came. Why? I'd like to know what we may be facing in this country.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
SP5 Norman McGill - I sense your concern. What was (and continues to be) alarming to me is that our Political Leaders encouraged this. "They won't stop...they shouldn't stop." I am all for a deep investigation into Law Enforcement conduct (but I suspect that what will actually be found won't be what some people want to find), conducted at the Federal Level. Determining the truth should not be opposed by anybody. But when some of our Elected Leaders actually encourage this violence then ... well ... I don't know what can be done. Honestly, I don't.
The Standards for Insurrection were established by the 117th Congress. If the GOP takes both chambers next year than I hope these Standards are considered by the 118th Congress.
The Standards for Insurrection were established by the 117th Congress. If the GOP takes both chambers next year than I hope these Standards are considered by the 118th Congress.
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SP5 Norman McGill
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - The politicians sure didn't waste any time arresting 500 participants in the January 6th riot in DC so why not the people behind the cities that refused to stop the riots last summer? Those local politicians ordered the police to stand down which they,the police, had to do or get prosecuted themselves for disobeying an order, most likely losing their jobs etc. along the way. The officials who gave those orders need to be arrested and charged with inciting a riot at least and insurrection at most. They are the traitors and now are going unpunished along with DC people who should be in prison. I agree with the GOP getting control of the House at least and the Senate too if possible and getting rid of Pelosi and her crowd so that justice can be served to those who need it.
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.
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SFC Robert Walton
SP5 Norman McGill - Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis This is why this original question should have never been ask here.. None of the mitigating information will ever be written here because and full and honest investigation will never come out, Due to Media manipulation, political manipulation, Hate, Division, Truth, and many other reasons. This post in my opinion is here to collect free information for a media editorial with out using the proper channels. MTC
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The fact that in the question it states 'illegal' or 'unconstitutional' order is all you need to know. You DO NOT follow unlawful orders! No matter who gives them. It's in your oath for Pete's sake; I will follow the LAWFUL orders of those above me.
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Absolutely not. I swore to uphold the constitution and defend against all enemies foreign and domestic.
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Capt Edward Egan
I don't have a high enough "influence score" to vote you down, but consider it done.
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Why are so many afraid of controversy? President JFK's statement that, 'it should be a crime to shrink from controversy,' remains timeless. Yet this post asks a simple question: Are you an oathkeeper, or not? Do you believe the law or not?
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