Posted on Dec 19, 2013
You Decide: Leave a Platoon Sergeant in Position if they fail an Army Standard?
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You're the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........<div><br></div><div>Leave him in position or remove him?</div><div><br></div><div>Defend your answer.</div>
APFT
Platoon Sergeant
ABCP
Edited 12 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 61
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Personally, I say absolutely not. You can't hold your soldiers to a standard that you can't meet. After failing I say put the PSG on probation until they take their retest, which should be in the mandated time period. If they fail the retest, the next senior person takes that position. The NCO will remain in the platoon as squad leader.
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At a minimum this NCO is going to be suspended. The reason is simple, how can a leader hold others to the standard, if they themselves cannot achieve the standards. I will give him a 4856 with a course of action laid out, up to and including his potential relief if he does not meet the standards in the timeline I have given him. Even if he comes back and achieves the standards, his lapse will still be annotated on his NCOER.
I fully agree that everyone has a lapse in discpline, but you must be willing to answer for those lapses.
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CSM I would remove the Platoon Sergeant from his position. The way I see it how can you ask anything of your soldiers that your are not able or willing to do yourself. As a leader it is that leaders responsibility to lead by example. The Platoon Sergeant's soldiers may respect him still even though he has failed to meet APFT or ABCP standards but soldiers often begin to think when they see this "why should I listen to him when he can't even pass an APFT?"
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I would not fire him I would suspend him until he passes his APFT. The reason being is your Soldiers look up to and you are placed in that position to lead and teach your Soldiers what the Army Standard is. If your Soldier can not see self motivation in the PSG then they are not going to have any. Even though I am not in that position I will tell you as a Soldier your PSG sets the example as well as the standard.
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For the sake of being the devils advocate, what if this PSG fails a standard, but he has the highest overall Platoon Pt score in the BN, all his soldiers shoot expert and sharpshooter, the platoon has no serious incidents and DUIs since he's been a PSG and his subordinates believe he/she is a great leader should the CoC remove him even having a high success rate.
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SGT Chris Hill
SSG Cedeno, as I was attempting to say but got cut off, yes it seems drastic. Maybe there is a way to keep that PSG in his/her position, but regardless, people talk. But we also talk about having integrity to our Soldiers, if this PSG were to fail APFT/ABCP, then s/he should be dealt with accordingly. I've spent majority of my time in a line unit, always leading Soldiers and having eyes on my leadership. If s/he barely fails weight/tape or APFT, that's not a mistake, as a PSG you better damn well know better. What kinda message does that send to the subordinates if the PSG even barely fails? I wouldn't say go as far as inputting affecting his/her NCOER if it's just a one time thing, that's his/her freebie, but removing him/her from their position, yes. Even if it's a temporary move, just to show the Soldiers and fellow NCOs that a 1SG/CSM will remove you from a PSG position if you fail, but if you can bounce back and pass 2 consecutive APFT's, allow that PSG to earn his position back. Showing subordinates what it takes to earn your spot back, they will know that the NCO did what s/he had to do in order to earn their position back. that tells me "yes I failed, but I did what I had to do to earn it back" can gain even more respect from fellow Soldiers and NCO's. Yeah pretty cut throat it seems but damn this is a professional organization, "I will earn their respect, and confidence, as well as that of my Soldiers", make a mistake, got it, but gain my respect and confidence in you as a leader by doing what you have to do to gain your position back, not just swept under the rug.
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT Hill,
I agree we your statement, but giving a freebie still sends the wrong message. I’m
going to quote you:
“But we also talk about having integrity to our
Soldiers, if this PSG were to fail APFT/ABCP, then s/he should be dealt with
accordingly.”
Then you contradict that statement with this statement, “I wouldn't say
go as far as inputting affecting his/her NCOER if it's just a one time thing,
that's his/her freebie”
With your first statement you stated, as a leader I should not
compromise my integrity nor my moral courage (Like the NCO Creed States) so as a
rater should I give my SGT/TL a Needs Improvement/No on the value Duty, because
I cannot as a leader compromise integrity and I have to be fair and impartial. If
that’s how the NCO performed that is how he should be annotated on his eval.
Right? If not the other NCOs will believe that they are entitled to a freebie, because
you gave a freebie in the past. That can be perceived as showing favoritism to
one NCO.
What I’m trying to say and this is based on my opinion, as Future Senior NCOs
we need to know when to show empathy and allow our subordinates to be resilient
before we hit them with the hammer. We should COUNSEL and FOLLOW UP, to see is
there’s any improvement, MENTOR that leader and evaluate the his performance
and the performance of the soldiers.
You can have a piss poor PSG, but if you have strong SL that PSG will look
great on paper and if you have a strong PSG with piss poor SL that could care
about nothing and make the PSG look like crap.
SGT Hill I enjoyed this debate!
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Definitely wouldn't leave the PSG in that position, they are a Soldiers leadership and we as leaders are obligated to uphold the standards, especially basic soldiering standards such as APFT and 600-9. I've seen instances where a PSG fails one or the other and nothing happens, but yet when a section sergeant fails, the NCO is counseled, flagged and loses his/her position. Hell even a 1SG should be held to the same standard! No one is exempt from regulations, and if you wear the stripes or brass, you better be setting the standard! If we don't, that's what we call hypocrisy and all respect is lost towards that particular NCO/Officer
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CSM,
I definitely feel that they should not be in the position. It is a simple Army standard. Unfortunately the regulation allows anyone below 1SG to remain in the position. Frankly, I think that anyone in ANY leadership position should not be allowed to be in that position. The Army is shrinking and there are a ton of eager and good Soldiers waiting to take their place.
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CSM Mike Maynard
You are exactly right SFC Jones, it's not mandated that they be removed. This is a leadership issue and you have to determine the climate you want to set at your echelon.
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CW2 (Join to see)
CSM exactly. I think it's like my NCOER thread I started. I just don't think a leader that can't meet the standard deserves to be in a leadership position. Maybe I'd change my mind if I was at your level but the highest level I've been at is 1SG. If a Soldier fails the APFT or HTWT we basically start thinking of them as a loss (depending how far off they are). And yet NCOs we allow to continue to counsel subordinates about passing the APFT. I mean how can a PSG who can't pass the APFT be expected to negatively counsel subordinate NCOs for failing? How hypocritical would that be?
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MSG (Join to see)
Gotta ask yourself a few questions first...Are they Trained? Are they Able? Are they Willing? You see, failing a standard is a message...it's a message from the Soldier to the leadership that they are either untrained, unable or unwilling. So, leader...did you train them using the STP to standard in a controlled environment ensuring METL and supporting tasks are understood and executed? Did you clearly explain using effective communication skills what the standard was and what was and is expected? Did you provide the Soldier with all of the equipment, training and education necessary to perform the task? What are the significant, insignificant internal and external factors affecting the Soldiers performance standards? If you haven't addressed these questions and LED the Soldier to come up with solutions then you need to step up your leadership game. Leadership "position" or not...every Soldier is entitled to that communication and leadership...any idiot can replace people at a whim or at a first failure...it takes a LEADER to make LEADERS ;)
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CW2 (Join to see)
MSG, I'm sorry but yes we provided them with the time to conduct PT four or five days a week. The standard has been in place for quite some time. A SFC that can't pass the APFT gets no sympathy from me and I refuse to say the problem is on the leadership.
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Personally rank shouldn't be an issue in this situation. Standards are just that. If you had an E-4 team leader that failed the same test what would be your course of action. I can say from personal experience that the team leader would be removed from a leadership position. If you can't uphold the standards how can you expect the same from the soldiers you lead. The Army's pt and body fat standards are weak to say the least, if we can't meet these standards, maybe its time for a career change.
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CSM Maynard,
I say remove him immediately, "BUT" allow him to stand in front of platoon and tell his Soldiers why he is being removed or better yet allow him to have the option of stepping aside voluntarily. I believe most Soldiers will respect his honesty and would support the situation a little better. Soldiers prefer for leaders to own up to their problem(s), then fix it (if humanely possible) and then return at some point; this can also be associated with resiliency. I see a win in this for everyone.
I say remove him immediately, "BUT" allow him to stand in front of platoon and tell his Soldiers why he is being removed or better yet allow him to have the option of stepping aside voluntarily. I believe most Soldiers will respect his honesty and would support the situation a little better. Soldiers prefer for leaders to own up to their problem(s), then fix it (if humanely possible) and then return at some point; this can also be associated with resiliency. I see a win in this for everyone.
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1SG Michael Blount
CW2 Jones - toss in a flogging with that public humiliation and you may have a winning formula
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CW5 (Join to see)
LOL CSM Blount! I think we can have a winning formula without the flogging; that may be too much pain to cope with. Would you remove him as well? If so, how soon? Oh if you may CSM, please kindly add one more square or dot for me next time :-)
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I would remove him as well. Let him do remedial training and get back to standard and earn the leadership position back. As a junior soldier, it looks awful to see any form of leadership fail the standards and is completely discouraging to not only myself, but other soldiers as well. How can someone ask us to maintain the standard if they cannot themselves?
I could understand if they just came off an injury or something and have been on a serious profile for a while, but if it's bad enough to were they cannot pass, they should go back to the doctor and get back on a profile. That situation happened to me when I destroyed my knee. If it was somebody in charge of me failing, I'd expect them to either fix the situation immediately, or relieve themselves honestly. There are soldiers who are missing limbs and severely injured who could still manage to pass PT standards. No excuse.
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CSM Mike Maynard
PFC Rawlins - thanks for providing your perspective.
As you have stated, Soldiers need to have leaders (examples) that meet standards, otherwise it contributes to the demise of good order and discipline.
You have expressed what I believed to be true, thanks for the contribution.
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CPT (Join to see)
On a side note. What is a PFC(P), that is automatic when you hit the time requirements. Do PFCs go to a board now like NCOs. Or is it because you can get a waiver to get promoted that makes you have the P.
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1SG (Join to see)
Fellow Soldiers, I am a Platoon Sergeant and agree with PFC Rawlins 100 percent. I pride myself to set the example for Soldiers , Junior NCO's and my peers to follow. That is why it is a leadership position you can't expect Soldiers to do what you can't. Set the example and continue to push them to excel pass it. That is what makes a great leader in my book...
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CSM, I think it should be like that. They do that with officers if you fail to maintain a standard of knowledge and PT they get you away from leading soldiers to leading a desk. I feel that it should be the same for NCOs
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I would have to say remove him/her from that position...not only are NCOs supposed to be the standard-bearers for the Army, PSGs ARE the standard-bearer for their platoon. As a Corps we cannot have the "Do as I say, not as I do" mentality, we must as leaders, NCOs, be able to meet all requirements that we expect out of our Soldiers, period. Now if said PSG is able to "rehabilitate" themselves, the opportunity to lead should be given to that individual, but I would recommend that they not be placed back into the unit that they came from.
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Is there a replacement of equal or greater competence available? The standards are obviously important, but the Soldiers being taken care of is more so. From a subordinates perspective, is I'd much rather have a PLT SGT that did his job well, regardless of APFT status. On the flip side, I don't really care if my PLT SGT is a 300 plus if he isn't taking care of his people...
So basically, I'd replace him only if I KNEW his replacement was as competent or greater..
So basically, I'd replace him only if I KNEW his replacement was as competent or greater..
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CSM Mike Maynard
Replacement? Irrelevant.
You either have a standard for those in leadership positions or not.
I have no qualms having MSGs sit on the bench while I have a SFC in a 1SG position.
We have great NCOs that will always step up and rise to the occasion and do a wonderful job.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
I wish I could arbitrarily agree with you CSM, but if there's anything we've learned over the last decade, it's that rank and competence are not always bedfellows.
I HAVE to consider whether those Soldier's will be taken care of in the event of a replacement. I will not burden Soldiers with a leader who can't take care of them just for the sake a long run time.
The Soldiers well being is my first priority.
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SFC (Join to see)
Cpt Krogh you make some good points but ask your self this, if you had a Soldier not pass or meet body fat % you would not want him in your unit, but just because it's a Senior NCO you would keep him around?
I had a buddy who got kicked out of the Army due to failing the PT test and he just got off profile, but another guy in my unit failed the PT test with him and he is still in. There is a double standard in the Army and there needs to be only one (the Army standard).
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LTC (Join to see)
SSG Gardner,
I don't get rid of any body for one mistake or failure (provided he didn't record him murdering someone and then post it on youtube...or some such thing). If one of my PSG failed an APFT or Height/Weight, I would flag him, and do all necessary corrective action. However, I don't think he should lose his position just for that. Now, if he doesn't show necessary growth IAW the Weight Control Plan then I would take all necessary action.
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Coming from the junior NCO's looking up, I'd say it depends on the circumstances. If this NCO is very obviously physically unfit, has been for some time, regularly skips out on unit PT or doesn't try and fails a PT test, then yes, move them, if they're not attempting to uphold the standard there's likely other things that are going on.
However, if this PSG fails the PT test due to being ill, just coming off of some assignment that didn't afford them the opportunity to exercise, or is in the middle of a weight loss/strength gain program and actively trying to improve themselves, then I'd say counsel them and retest in no later than 90 days. I feel like if a junior NCO or Soldier had seen an NCO who had just returned from post-deployment leave and was given a short notice PT test and failed, to me at least it would seem like some sort of targeting or like your career was always in danger. We're all Soldiers, but we're still people, leaders and Soldiers need to work together when there's extenuating circumstances. The PSG shouldn't be absolved of responsibility for his failure, but should be afforded another opportunity in an appropriate timeframe to make things right unless they show a genuine lack of care for the standard.
However, if this PSG fails the PT test due to being ill, just coming off of some assignment that didn't afford them the opportunity to exercise, or is in the middle of a weight loss/strength gain program and actively trying to improve themselves, then I'd say counsel them and retest in no later than 90 days. I feel like if a junior NCO or Soldier had seen an NCO who had just returned from post-deployment leave and was given a short notice PT test and failed, to me at least it would seem like some sort of targeting or like your career was always in danger. We're all Soldiers, but we're still people, leaders and Soldiers need to work together when there's extenuating circumstances. The PSG shouldn't be absolved of responsibility for his failure, but should be afforded another opportunity in an appropriate timeframe to make things right unless they show a genuine lack of care for the standard.
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I can train soldiers to achieve heights I never will if I have an understanding of how it works even if I cant do it myself. As a weapon instructor I out performed many of my cadre because they could teach me better than they had the ability to achieve. I think on principle you counsel give time to correct then you remove if not fixed. many soldiers cannot perform a task however they can direct subordinates maximize there potential that's what great coaches do. Is that not a leaders job?
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Hell no, how is he to be trusted to uphold standards when he can't lead from the front?
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For those who answer remove immediately, do you give them a relief for cause NCOER?
You should, right? You are relieving them.
Removing them will require an NCOER be prepared for them, and unless it is a RFC, that NCO will have to complete an NCOER for all of the NCOs that PSG/SL rates.
Of course the NCOER will have to reflect the failed APFT or ABCP, essentially guaranteeing an end to any future promotions. Yes, if there are some extra promotions they may be protected, but for most it will mean they are finished with any forward progress. So, to be clear, the consequences are going to be significant.
Not saying you shouldn't remove them, just wanting to clarify if the removal is going to have the desired impact.
You should, right? You are relieving them.
Removing them will require an NCOER be prepared for them, and unless it is a RFC, that NCO will have to complete an NCOER for all of the NCOs that PSG/SL rates.
Of course the NCOER will have to reflect the failed APFT or ABCP, essentially guaranteeing an end to any future promotions. Yes, if there are some extra promotions they may be protected, but for most it will mean they are finished with any forward progress. So, to be clear, the consequences are going to be significant.
Not saying you shouldn't remove them, just wanting to clarify if the removal is going to have the desired impact.
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Is this the first occurence and, if so, does the SM have the desire and ability to get back within standards?
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You give him all the rope the Regs say- then if you are going to chapter him, then remove for the good of the unit. Do you really want an NCO on his way out to poison the PLT?
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A CSM or SGM is not a leadership position, it is a advisory position. The Platoon Sergeant removal is the duty his chain of command. You can recommend to the 1SG to take actions and advise your commander. The CSM does not rate a PSG or endorses his fitness report nor can he remove him unless he works for the CSM in an academy. Howewvewr, the CSM has a lot of authority through his commander; he has his/her ear. The commanders issues orders, the CSM recommends actions.
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